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Bevel questions

The*Cincinnati*Kid

Well-Known Member
I took the time Sunday to carefully drill the pin and take the scales off my newest razor so I could clean it up a bit. After cleaning up some rust, I started to try and work out a small chip(as deep as a fingernail is thick) with the BBW side of my little combo. I got it halfway out when I noticed that the bevel is not uniform on both sides so I stoped. My questions are,(1) Is this a problem? (2) Is this normal in older(improperly honed) blades? (3) How can I fix this if it is a problem? Any suggestions you guys can give me about this would be great. The blade is a Faux frameback wedge, in case that needs to be taken into consideration. Also how can I tell if the spine is warped?

000_0079.jpg
000_0082.jpg


Thanks
Louis.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Knowing these kind of ancient, wedgy, faux-framebacks a bit, I bet you a dime that the blade of this razor originally carried a nicely smiling curve. It seems to me that previous sharpening jobs took out that curve, which explains why the middle of the the blade caries a wider bevel than the outer ends.

I wouldn't really worry about warp. Most of these blades have a bit of a tapering spine, not always all that symmetrical. I think that these blades were made almost completely out of free hand, by a skilled craftsman. The free hand part of their looks is part of the charm, and it does not have to interfere with your sharpening.

What does interfere with your sharpening, is your choice of hone to restore a proper bevel on this razor. The BBW is a very nice hone, but for this kind of heavy bevel work, I would really recommend using a faster hone. I would probably go to a DMT 325 and try to get some of that smile back.

What I would also do, it to measure the spine and blade width and calculate the bevel angle. I believe that offers very important information for turning these razors into a good shaver, instead of just a shaver you use once and store with the rest of them...

It is all explained it this article:
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, where you will also find the bevel angle calculator. If you don't have excel, just post the measurements, and someone will do the calculations for you.

Finally, I couldn't sharpen a razor without scales attached. Balance and all that...

Good luck,
Bart.
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Luis before i like to have a picture from front to have an idea about the radium.Razor has grinded horizontally.I have suggestions for that.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

The*Cincinnati*Kid

Well-Known Member
Thanks Bart. I have a unknown stone(not sure of grit rating) that I think I'll give a try. tried to use the calculator but its a no go. The blade width is 7/8" on the nose, spine width is 1/4", hone wear width varies from 3/32" at its widest to 2/32" at its narrowest. If there is a measurement I missed that you need to calculate let me know.

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It actually feels and handles pretty well honing this blade without the scales on it, I guess because it is heavier than most blades(2.6 oz.)


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I'm not sure what you mean Emmanuel, a front shot like this?
000_0048.jpg


So having an uneven bevel isn't a problem is what I'm concluding.

Regards
Louis.
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Louis Bart suggests this link
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there are the details for wedges.In the bottom left exists a XL to download.This help you to calculate the
sharpening edge angle.I did it for you .The blade width is 7/8" 22.22 mm and the spine width
is 1/4" 6,35 mm , that gives angle 16,4 with one tape layer (0,13 mm)is 17,1 and 17,8 with two.Its ok
That's a good angle.The requested photo is correct so tonight ill give you any information for the razor maintenance.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Louis First with a marker paint the spine sides.Tape the edge and start with back-front motions on a 320 sandpaper stuck on a flat surface like a pane .Normally ink should be disappeared across the spine .Taped edge must be touched on the sandpaper . Continue until the ink disappeared of both sides.If needed change the edge tape,Maybe the spine is conical and sandpaper cuts only to the upper spine part.If yes ,never mint enough to be all along.
Then make a parallelepiped wood that each side will have the width of the blade and the length a little bit more that the blade.Tighten the blade by the the sank on a vise .Stuck a 320 sandpaper on one side of the wood lapping the blade sides which as i can see are flat having the spine as guide by back-front motions.Before mark the edge by the same marker across the edge (3mm) both sides.Procedure should be continued until the ink disappeared.If you like you can use finer sandpapers to smooth the sanded surfaces or buffing.Now the blade is ready for honing.If you haven't a DMT 325 use the same sandpaper used for the spine.Hone on 1000 (sand paper).
Now on the coticule dilucote method.
Good luck
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

Toff

Well-Known Member
Thank you Emmanuel, Good information for us with old, used, and poorly maintained razors.
respectfully
~Richard
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Emmanuel, if I understand it a bit, you are explaining a basic way to "regrind" the profile of the razor, to achieve a narrower bevel. Is that correct? (I'm having difficulties visualizing your explanation).

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

vgeorge

Well-Known Member
Emmanuel, I have to include myself in the group who are finding it difficult to decipher.

May I suggest something: if you give sub-headings (sub-titles) for separate things to be achieved, and enumerate the steps under each sub-heading, then we might have a better picture. Just a suggestion.

I too have this challenge of having problematic spine/bevel geometry in some old razors. Your ideas will be very helpful.
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Bart,Ralf,George. My question ,is my english syntactically unorthodox or there are many actions and notions in little words ?
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

Toff

Well-Known Member
If I may offer this arraignment, of the process:The errors are mine the process is Emmanuel's

"Louis, First with a marker paint the spine sides."( gives a guide to see the wear )

"Tape the edge and start with back-front motions on a 320 sandpaper stuck on a flat surface like a pane [glass flat]." (The edge is protected and the wet/dry honing is the make the spine parallel and close to the final bevel angle)
"Normally ink should be disappeared across the spine .Taped edge must be touched on the sandpaper ."

" Continue until the ink disappeared of both sides.If needed change the edge tape,Maybe the spine is conical and sandpaper cuts only to the upper spine part.If yes ,never mint[d] enough to be all along."
(At the end of this operation, the sides of the spine should be parallel and flat with an angle close to the final bevel angle)
.
"Then make a parallelepiped/( tapered ) wood that each side will have the width of the blade and the length a little bit more that the blade.
Tighten the blade by the the s[h]ank on a vise."

(The tapered wood is the sanding block; paper on one side. The back of the block, because of the taper gives a good indicator that the sanding of the bevel is true to the vertical axis of the blade at the center of the spine.)
."Stuck a 320 sandpaper on one side of the wood lapping the blade sides which as I can see are flat having the spine as guide by back-front motions."

"Before [ sanding] mark the edge by the same marker across the edge (3mm) both sides. Again, a way to measure the straightness of the edge and the and the straightness of the forming bevel."

"Procedure should be continued until the ink disappeared.If you like you can use finer sandpapers to smooth the sanded surfaces or buffing.Now the blade is ready for honing.If you haven't a DMT 325 use the same sandpaper used for for the spine.Hone on 1000 (wet dry sand paper)"

From the original by Emmanuel

Respectfully submitted and expecting Emmanuel to remove my errors.
~Richard
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Thank you, Toff.

Now I understand the procedure.

I would like to note that many ancient sheffield razors have a conical spine. The keeps the bevel angle of a smiling blade constant. In the middle where the blade is widest, the spine is thicker than at both ends, where the smiling blade is smaller.

I'm not saying that is the case here, although I think that thie razor shown orriginally had a smaling edge curve.

Kind regards,
Bart
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Thanks Richard. Parallelepiped wood block is not tapered is like:
or_par_vol.gif

The length of side (α) should be a little bit longer than the blades length
The width of side(β) should be like the blades width.
Balances are correct.
Thanks again Richard
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
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Yes Bart i know that many ancient sheffield razors have a conical spine.Thats why noted:Maybe the spine is conical and sandpaper cuts only to the upper spine part.If yes ,never mint enough to be all along.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 
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