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coticule /issards pate

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
This is not a method i would usauly use. I dulled the edge of a kropp razor honed on slurry untill shaving arm hair and finished on 100 laps regular milky slurry by now shaving arm hair realy well. Then i did 40 to 50 laps on issards pate rasoir i then stropped on just leather and i'm passing hht 10/10 the tpt feels great i will shave tomorrow morning and post results i'm sure the razor will shve how good i will see and how long the edge will last i don't no./ bart mentioned a company that hones there razors in the same way but they use red dovo paste so i thought i would try with issards. i would say if it works it would be a short cut to keenes.
 
Right i just started the same process again as i noticed a section of the balde was'nt passing hht to the standard i like. I think i overdone it on the paste or not enough on the coti with slurry. This time i did 25 passes on issards pate now passing all the way along the edge stropped on linen litigo then horshide now perfect. i think less laps on issards is better.
 
I'm almost sure it will work quite well.
A Coticule with slurry work great to create flat and fully extended bevel faces on a razor's edge.
Next one can refine it some on thinned slurry, before getting the last bit of extra keenness of a paste. No doubt that this would work easily and well.

There's only one pitfall that can easily be avoided.
Many shavers eventually fail with this approach, because they have no idea when the bevel is "flat and fully extended". They usually touch up on pastes till the edge looses all responsiveness. That might be a year after the initial honing. But by that time, the bevel is really heavily arc shaped. At that point, they hone on slurry without a clue how long it can take to get rid of the belly on a arc-shaped bevel. If you jump to pastes too soon in such a situation, the edge might regain some keenness, but it will never be as good as when you successfully perfected the bevel to begin with.

The glass bottle trick really helps to easily recognize the point where the bevel reaches perfection: you simply have to work on the slurry till the edge shaves arm hair along its entire length. After that, most methods promoted on this website aim to refine on the hone itself. But one can surely achieve it with a pasted strop to. I do recommend paddle strops for this kind of sharpening. Perhaps a loom strop for the white TI paste, which is quite soft and recommended as the "finishing" paste.

I don't have that much experience with this. If someone would like to write an article for the Sharpening Academy, that covers this method of razor sharpening, please let us know. We will offer whatever assistance needed.
Maybe we could do separate chapters for each available paste system (I'm thinking Dovo's pastes and TI-'s pastes in the first place.)

Bart.
 
tat2Ralfy said:
did you use a paddle strop gary, or a pasted hone, or just a plain old hanging strop?

Hi ralfy i used my canvas hanging strop i prefer it to paddle its quiker and easier for me
 
Bart said:
I'm almost sure it will work quite well.
A Coticule with slurry work great to create flat and fully extended bevel faces on a razor's edge.
Next one can refine it some on thinned slurry, before getting the last bit of extra keenness of a paste. No doubt that this would work easily and well.

There's only one pitfall that can easily be avoided.
Many shavers eventually fail with this approach, because they have no idea when the bevel is "flat and fully extended". They usually touch up on pastes till the edge looses all responsiveness. That might be a year after the initial honing. But by that time, the bevel is really heavily arc shaped. At that point, they hone on slurry without a clue how long it can take to get rid of the belly on a arc-shaped bevel. If you jump to pastes too soon in such a situation, the edge might regain some keenness, but it will never be as good as when you successfully perfected the bevel to begin with.

The glass bottle trick really helps to easily recognize the point where the bevel reaches perfection: you simply have to work on the slurry till the edge shaves arm hair along its entire length. After that, most methods promoted on this website aim to refine on the hone itself. But one can surely achieve it with a pasted strop to. I do recommend paddle strops for this kind of sharpening. Perhaps a loom strop for the white TI paste, which is quite soft and recommended as the "finishing" paste.

I don't have that much experience with this. If someone would like to write an article for the Sharpening Academy, that covers this method of razor sharpening, please let us know. We will offer whatever assistance needed.
Maybe we could do separate chapters for each available paste system (I'm thinking Dovo's pastes and TI-'s pastes in the first place.)

Bart.

Bart lets just say i was to touch up on coticule instead of pate would it work i should imagine it would'nt if refining has been achieved with paste i'm only guessing? i should imagine you'd have to refresh with paste then fully hone when paste fails.
 
garyhaywood said:
Lets just say i was to touch up on coticule instead of pate would it work i should imagine it would'nt if refining has been achieved with paste i'm only guessing? i should imagine you'd have to refresh with paste then fully hone when paste fails.
A pasted strop, even if it is a paddle, will always introduce some convexity in the shape of the bevel. The problem with convexity is that you have to remove the "belly" before the flat surface of a hone can reach the very edge again.
If you only did one pasted honing session on a paddle or a tight loom strop, and you didn't do a lot of laps, perhaps a Coticule with just water could still catch up. But after multiple trips to the pasted strop you can't quickly touch up keenness on a flat honing surface. It now requires that the bevel faces are made flat again. I 'd call that a full honing job.

With a pasted strop approach, you should strop on linen and leather in between shaves (just like you would do with any razor). Once normal stropping no longer revives the edge, you can touch up on your finest paste. After several trips to that paste, the edge will no longer restore to original performance. You could try a more aggressive paste and then the finer paste. Eventually you'll have a lot of work on a Coticule (or another hone) reshaping the bevel.
I once had a longtime straight shaver over here for a honing demonstration.
It took me over an hour on a decent slurry to hone out the belly on his razor's bevel (It was before I discovered the speed of the half strokes). Once done, the man was amazed by the smoothness of the shave.

Another consequence of finishing on pastes is that you miss out on the smoothness a Coticule can provide. Of course, depending on personal preference, pastes can provide that too. But on a well honed Coticule edge I never found any benefit to use Chromium Oxide, which is the only paste I have (rarely) used in a very long time.
 
This honing stuff isn't so complicated, is it?

I know if you go to Coticule w/ water after working on the slurry, it doesn't work, but if you went from Coticule w/ slurry to something fast like a Naniwa 12k would that work? Basically using a fast synthetic in place of the paste.

It's an interesting idea, but if you want to keep it this simple I figure you might as well just use Unicot.

So what grit would you put to Coticule /slurry? I thought that you couldn't compare it to something like a Norton 4k, because the nature of it is much different. This gives me the impression that it's like 4000ish, because from there it would be possible to just go to a finisher and be done with it.
 
You see it is difficult to know when the bevel is absolutely flat all the way to the edge but I believe most natural hones (especially the Coticule) will tell you exactly when. You will feel the resistance against the edge.
With slurry do sets of half-strokes on each side with a little pressure until you suddenly feel resistance when going against the edge, at that point do a few light regular strokes with just water and you are done… strop the blade and shave.
It is easier to feel the resistance if you are holding the hone in hand… much easier.
When the resistance comes it will be sudden… it wont sneak up on you… you will know it when it happens… just keep going until you feel it.
 
I would say you carn't compare manmade grit rating to a coticule but what i can compare mine to is it do the work of a 1k because mine cuts so fast with good slurry and the finer the slurry gets it can do the work of 4k 8k/and then with water between 8k 12k and because they cut with these magical garnets it also leaves a much smoother edge thats why i like the coticule it has to be the most versatile hone i no of. any way i'm of to test this razor.
 
justin said:
This honing stuff isn't so complicated, is it?

I know if you go to Coticule w/ water after working on the slurry, it doesn't work, but if you went from Coticule w/ slurry to something fast like a Naniwa 12k would that work? Basically using a fast synthetic in place of the paste.

It's an interesting idea, but if you want to keep it this simple I figure you might as well just use Unicot.

So what grit would you put to Coticule /slurry? I thought that you couldn't compare it to something like a Norton 4k, because the nature of it is much different. This gives me the impression that it's like 4000ish, because from there it would be possible to just go to a finisher and be done with it.

Bart has mentioned he gone from coticule/slurry then a 10k stone to reach absalut keeness then he has finished on coticule with water with great results. I tryed this and it works but it took me longer to get it right i think it takes a little more experiance and practice. Thats why he came up with unicot method and i have to say thats a great method for consistant edge. Depending on your coticule i think yours is very similar to mine very fast with slurry using halve strokes can just do the work of 1k hone thats where once bevel is shaving arm hair your bevel is set then using dilucot method your slurry is gradualy diluted your coticule is refining the edge and your coticule is doing the work of say 3k 4k 5k then as water kicks in 8k to possibly 12k and then if you need 10 laps on your finest paste if needed i don't use paste often i shave of coticule first if i'm not 100 percent happy i will add paste and see if that gets me where i like.
 
I just shaved i hav'nt shaved in nearly three and halve days. And the razor was absalutly shave ready the shave was as good as it gets this kropp always hones up easy the metal seems to produce a smooth sharp edge i will try on some of my other practice razors see how it goes but i recomend giving it a go. It's realy simple.

I persnaly would prefer to get my edges like this straight of the hone as i want to be able to achieve that and it takes that bit more skill so its great if i can but if i'm struggling i would either use unicot method or the isards pate at least i no i have these options after i've done dilucot method. i also added 10 very light laps of my cro.5 oxide which is finer than issards don't think it made a massive differance but it did'nt make the edge any worse i find the issards realy has some sharpening power and smoothness but the cro ox can add little more polish.
 
Good Morning Gary mate
that was a fast shave! how did it go?
O.K right now I am trying something a bit different, I am honing up an old Metropol Hamburg ring, I had to completely reshape the edge cause of a frown, so I started from beyond dull and well into blunt.
first I formed the bevel with my old faithful diamond knife sharpener thing, its like a dmt only much much cheaper, until it passed tnt, then onto coti with slurry 1/2 strokes to arm hair shaving, diluted slurry and used regular x strokes 30 laps, added few drops water and 30 more laps, I did this 3 times, checked hht and got a violin, thats where I am at right now.
Now instead of carrying on with Dilucot I am going to flip the stone over and use the bbw side, I figure that will get it sharper then the yellow, hht again just to see, then I plan to go back to coti with water for say 100 laps to finish.
If I am right (well you never know..lol) I think all that will act like a progressive hone, I should get a very sharp very smooth edge.
No paste, less laps than the Dilocut, only one bevel, and its only taken err lets see....... all night!
Oh well the things we do in the name of research...hahaha
 
The shave was great ralfy i tryed that method and it also works realy well. it all makes a change i some times touch up 30 on bbw slurry then 30 laps on coti with water.i like the feel of bbw with slurry.
 
justin said:
This honing stuff isn't so complicated, is it?

I know if you go to Coticule w/ water after working on the slurry, it doesn't work, but if you went from Coticule w/ slurry to something fast like a Naniwa 12k would that work? Basically using a fast synthetic in place of the paste.
Sure. Refer to the progressive honing method in the Sharpening Academy:
http://www.coticule.be/progressive-honing-method.html
justin said:
It's an interesting idea, but if you want to keep it this simple I figure you might as well just use Unicot.
In a way, Unicot and pasted sharpening resemble each other. They both concentrate on a small region at the very edge. Unicot does so in a highly controlled manner. Pasted stropping has a wider variety of possibilities (different pastes, different stropping surfaces, different strop models). Because of that the outcome often differs, but if done methodically,there's nothing against it.
justin said:
So what grit would you put to Coticule /slurry? I thought that you couldn't compare it to something like a Norton 4k, because the nature of it is much different. This gives me the impression that it's like 4000ish, because from there it would be possible to just go to a finisher and be done with it.

AAAAARGH!!!! The G-question.:mad: ;)
I hate questions about grit rating... It invites people to treat Coticules like synthetic hones, and next they wonder why they can't get good results off them.
But since the question keeps coming up, I added a FAQ article with some pointers.
http://www.coticule.be/faq-reader/items/the_grit_question.html
 
Yeah, I hate the idea of putting grit ratings to naturals, especially the Coticule. Nice write up. That's kind of how I was picturing it in my mind.
 
Since there are some questions about using pastes, I think I can provide some thoughts on the subject. I am very familure with Crox, since I sell both it and hard balsa strops.
Most pastes we use come from some kind of ground up substance and is mixed with a binder to create either a paste, a liquid or a hard bar. Some are oily and some are not. But they all provide nearly the same idea - a product to either polish or grind.
We can go from the most corse products that have carborundum in them (usually black) to those that have no cutting effect at all like jewlers rough (the red) and everything inbetween, white, green, brown, blue, etc.
The problems with past are several. One is their inconsistency in repeat performance. Second is incorrect application to the surface one decides to use it on. Third is their effect to the edge we created. Fourth is over usage.

The inconsistency comes from the fact that pastes are more like a variable stone then anything. I have found the surface goes from bad to good to bad again. But how can this be? The answer lies in the fact that we tend to over apply the stuff to our surface, and until it is worn down some it doesn't work for crap. Then as we use it, it wears off and doesn't work for crap again. Consider putting mayonaise on a sandwich. If we put it on too thick we can move it around all day with the knife and never remove it from the blade without wiping it off on either the bread or the edge of the jar. The same applies with pastes. If it is applied too thick, it doesn't do much of anything except move around and get wiped off the blade. With each successive usage though, it starts to work better. At some point it really works nicely. So first off, we tend to overapply.

So what about the different surfaces?
Well, we have different options here. We can apply our paste to our linen or leather strop, or to a hard leather strop or to hard balsa. But which one is best? Here again, it is up to the individual to choose. Soft linen and soft leather are usually not recommended because of the possibility of rolling the edge. If you are extremely efficient at stropping then this may work for you. Hard balsa and hard leather provide a more forgiving surface when it comes to rolling the edge. With the use of Crox, at least the one I sell, one or two rolls of the edge and you are headed back to the hone. This stuff is extremely efficient. The reason we use Balsa is not because it is cheap, but rather it has the quality of holding the media in its poures so it can be presented to the edge in a reasonably consistent fassion. The surface is soft and we can provide different pressure as we use it. The rough side of leather works somewhat like this also.

So how do we provide a proper application of our paste to the surface we have chosen? I will tell you how I do crox to my balsa. I take my dry crox and put some on my index finger and work it into the surface at several places. Then I take some mineral oil and start to spread it around. I continue to do both until the whole surface is coated. I let this sit for a short period of time and then wipe the surface with a clean paper towel. I continue to do this until there is hardly any crox removed. Then I know the poures are filled and the surface is ready.
How long does this last? My current pasted hard balsa strop has been used on over 160 razors and I have yet to re-apply any crox to the surface.

So how many strokes are we suppost to give to the blade?
Well this is an interesting question. I do NOT use my crox, or any paste for that matter, as a finishing medium. The reason is, as Bart has stated, using pastes puts a convex edge on the blade. I "sometimes" use crox on hard balsa between my 16k and my finishing stone. The reason I do is because I can see a very, very fine wire on the edge and need to remove it before I finish the edge. Ususlly 3 strokes will do that. More than that is to many. When it comes to pastes and sprays, less is better.
When I feel my razor start to lose its smoothness, usually after 6 shaves, I touch it up on my balsa 6 strokes only and then strop on my leather. That usually puts it back to normal for another 6 shaves and keeps me going for 3 to 4 months.

My question to you all is: If you are getting such a smooth and incredibly sharp edge, as you have stated before, why are you suddenly looking for something better? Just asking.

Enjoy!

Ray
 
I used it in this case to refine the edge rather than dilucot method just to see if it would work and it did . why would i use paste? I find paste can add more glide if a razor is honed to the max i don't think paste makes much differance if your razor is not honed up to par then paste will make up for that so its handy to have. I could easily not use paste but i have to say i just use it to make sure i have the ultimate edge just habbit i supose but i do think paste can add extra keeness and smoothness for most people even honmeisters
 
rayman said:
My question to you all is: If you are getting such a smooth and incredibly sharp edge, as you have stated before, why are you suddenly looking for something better? Just asking.
:D :D :D

A good question, Ray. I have CrO on a loom strop. My technique for applying it, resembles yours. (I have sanded the leather for a suede texture) I put on some powder, brush off the excess and work what stays on the leather into the pores with a leather cleaning wipe (they are damp tissues sold in a package). I don't know how long it lasts, had no need for reapplication yet.

My marker for using the CrO is a well calibrated HHT. Off the Coticule, my edges pass HHT-3 on a thick hair. After the first stropping session on clean linen and leather, I expect HHT-4 on a fine hair or HHT-5 on a heavy hair. At that level, stropping on CrO makes no difference whatsoever. If the razor fails to show the expected response to clean stropping, I take it to the CrO strop for 10 laps (stropping surface: 18cm X 4cm). About a year ago, I needed to do that on 50% of all razors I honed. Today it is less than 1 out of 10. It sure is a matter of reaching a landing zone near the limit of what the hone can do. But also the inherent properties of the razor are a major factor in how easy it is to reach that landing zone.

One thing I have never believed (with all respect for Gary who often refers to it)are theories about better glide. At the levels of polish we speak, all razors glide perfectly on the skin. (if they don't catch it). The resistance we feel is the resistance to sever the whiskers. Resistance to sever hairs equals sharpness in my reasoning.

Stropping works at the apex of the edge. If the apex still lacks definition for the full benefits of a clean strop, CrO is excellent stuff. Combine the Unicot method with excellent stropping technique and you'll hardly ever need it. The Dilucot method took me a year of practice before I could achieve that on most razors. Maybe it's important to note that I am talking about the difference between a better and a best edge.:)

Anyway CrO is good stuff. I am sure that counts for many other pastes as well.
I often see people apologizing for using them. I completely don't get the point of that. The same counts for doing the Unicot method. There is no shame in tape nor paste.
 
What is interesting is simply that there is not one single honing/sharpening method that everyone uses.
Other forums talk about several types/grades of stones.

Since joining this forum I have only used a coticule.

There is still room for experimentation, I am getting excellent results from the coti and have tried the TI paste also.

3 of the 4 blades I have used it on, it has made a slight difference to the blade, always difficult to say whether it is smoothness or sharpness.

I have just revived a dull edge tonight using just the TI paste - so it has its place as does CRO2.

I am fast forming the opinion that there are several ways to skin a cat.

I personally like the simplicity of the coticule and am enthused with the TI paste.

I shall carry on listening to others and explore until I reach my own utopia

GREAT FORUM btw
 
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