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coticule/thringian/12k naniwa

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
I've conducted a little test .

i have shaved with the same razor for 5 shaves with one days growth.with the grain and across the grain only. performing 3 passes.

The razor was my TI new steal. The razor was fully honed using dilucot on my les lat yellow side.

then i added 60 laps on my thiringian (vintage 5x1) for the next five shaves. then i aded 12 laps on my naniwa 12k for the next 5 shaves. I've done this for my self to compare any differnces in smoothness and keeness , also skin condition after the shave.

the coticule shave was smooth and gentle and glided over the skin real nice leaving no sting with alum block at all. i have to say i did do one against the grain shave just to make sure the razor was shaving spot on. The razor gave a great shave against the grain. Still no sting with alum block, which is very good for my skin. I always find with the grain shave i'm not ultra close under my chin area unless i go against the grain. rest of shaves were on with and across the grain. I could still feel slight stubble when i rubbed my hand up the middle of my neck. thats normal.


I then did another 60 laps on my vintage thury. This is lovely little hone and feels great to hone on. the shave was still very smooth not crispy. Infact anice silky feel, very hard to tell if there was a differnce, very similar to the coticule edge . I liked the edge it felt very nice.the differnce i did notice was around my mustache area. I'm sure the edge shaved slight better with less efort in this area. I don't no about you guys but i can always tell how the razor shaves the tash off if its realy keen. not being biased here as i love my coticules but its very close but i had a feeling that the edge was still as smooth but could of been a tadge keener. under my chin i could still feel slight stubble as i rubbed my hand up my neck. So closeness was the same. there was no sting with alum block.

next up is the 12k naniwa. i have had this hone for a good two years. never used it apart from 5 times max.
i did 12 laps very light ones. I was weiry to use the 12k as my edge is just how i like it. I realy did'nt want to ruin the edge and end up with a crispy edge.

Any way 12 laps on then usaul linen/leather. There was a slight differnat feel very small differnace. The edge was still very smooth and comfortable . Infact you would think the razor had been finished on a natural stone. the shave was very similar to the last one . I would actauly say i shaved more effortlessly around my tash area. also after just shaving with the grain and across under my chin was defanatley that bit closer. So i was quite impressed with the naniwa 12k.there was no sting with alum block.


So all in all they all finished and shaved great with smooth edges. there realy was not much differrnce, my skin liked all three. I'd still prefer finishing with Natural stone thats just me.

the naniwa defanatley grabbed the stubble that bit better with the grain under my chin and in my neck i always have a problems getting the little bits of stubble that grow towards my ears . i can only get that close with atg shaving. the naniwa edge seemed to catch hold of those tiny areas. may be its due to the naniwa leaving a more slight toothy edge i'm not sure on that one.

bearing in mind all the honing was done on coticule. The other hones were just touch ups there was very very little differnaces. I may try a barber hone next. Not to sure as i don't want to ruin the edge as i'm not sure how this barber hone will work. If not the edge will get a thew strokes on the coti or thury.

cheers gary
 

TM280

Well-Known Member
Hi Gary,

I have noticed pretty much the same as what you are talking about. I have used touch ups with a Carborundum 200, Escher, Naniwa 12k, and a mystery stone with similar results. But I am tending to put more weight on the effect of the stone used previously to finishing. For example, if I hone a razor up on a Naniwa progression then finish on the Escher, I get an excellent shave, smooth and close. But I feel that it is not as smooth as when I touch up on the Escher after a coticule honing. I do not find the Naniwa 12k smooth enough after a Naniwa progression.

Oddly enough, if I touch up on a coticule, regardless of how the razor was honed, I feel I get full coticule smoothness. I am not sure that an assertion that the previous hones decide the edge after finishing (except for coticules) can hold up to scrutiny. We could just write it up to that I am not finishing "properly" with these other hones, or, the differences being so small that it is purely psychological, but my alum block tells the tale...

Since I have put the most amount of work into coticule honing, it could well be user error.

regards,
Torolf
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
As said from me too, I have never tried the naniwa, but I do believe the stones used before finishing has a more pronounced influence on the final outcome too, with the exception of Coticules, to me they seem to somehow "take over" and if used for finishing only they dont seem to allow the preceding stone to influence the feel so much, and also if the blade has been Coticule honed, then finished on another stone, I feel it comes out smoother than it would off say a Norton or similar.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
yes i could'nt agree more. i have found you never get the true beauty of your coticule after a 4k/8k. I did the full progression with naniwas like torlof and i found the shave to be good but not as smooth as my full dilucot on coticule. having said that i've not fully masterd the nortons or naniwas, as i have put al my time into coticules.

i no one thing for sure the 12k or 8k or 10k naniwa.would be great hone to gain keeness for any one needing a little help to boost keeness of coticule with out the use of pasted strops.

then they could maintain for months with there beloved coticule.

Cheers gary
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Friend Garry. Thanks for share,but personally believe you 'll never found a hone giving smoother shave than coticule.Maybe some natural pale Japanese are similar ,but i never tried .
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
i guess its down to what your face likes. The coticule edge is defanatley the most forgiving edge and yess smooth once you get the hang of them . My best ever edges have ben of the coticule . I have just got used to the edge of coticule , the coticule will always be my main hone. Infact i just did 30 laps on my lpb for tomorrows shave . the razor will be getting no more treat mant. except a touch up every seven days or shaves should i say.

regards gary
 

Rosco

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
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I agree but I think that what your face (and your technique) have grown accustomed to is at least as important. Everyone loves the smoothness of the coticule edge, and I think almost everyone agrees that edges can be made sharper on some other stones than is possible on the coticule. If are weaned on coticules, then you appreciate the margin for error their edges allow. You can have an off day and still not cut yourself or even have much burn with the alum. However, if you have developed the feather light touch required to use the sharpest edges known to man on your face while still coming out the other side with your face intact, then you will grow to REQUIRE your edges to be this sharp. You can no longer live without it. If a coticule user used these edges, they would probably cut themselves and declare the edge too sharp. It is the marriage between the stone, the edge, and the shaving technique which are important. This site was the first (and, it would seem, the only one) to realise the time it takes to develop a true marriage between razor and hone. To really be able to max out the edge on the hone. I think a degree of time must also be devoted to maxing out a particular edge on ones face.
In this respect, tests between different hones can become a self fulfilling prophecy of varying degrees.
Your honing, and shaving technique is tuned in to a particular edge and you prefer it to all others. Trying other edges only confirms this.

I enjoyed reading your comparison of different edges. It was very honest, and it got me thinking, and I ended up here.
whew........

This is one of those tomes when I wish I was better able to translate my thoughts into text.
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
What about those of us who learned on the super sharp edges, developed that feather light touch, but still prefer the coticule edge? :)
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Rosco,Paul,Garry. I am honing and shaving 35 years. My only hones are coticules and one Escher.Some times i tried others polishing hones from friends.Please believe me my face skin changed immediately (to the worst) .
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
well guys , i did 30 aprox strokes on my la patite blanch and restropped linen leather.

the shave this morning was most defanatley more smooth/buttery.i could tell and feel the differance on the first pass. the shave is what i describe magical edge which just how i like it. I shaved this time with the grain and across the grain. i finished against the grain.the shave was extremly mellow and very efortless.The alum block after gave no sensation at all, that for my skin is remarkable, especialy as i have shaved every day for the last so many weeks.

so very close but going back to coticule i could feel the differance, in reverse. i think i will give the barbers hone a miss.I may try that on a practice blade not my ti . to say many people say that the ti's are harsh i can onesly say the edges of the ti are exallant , they take a remarkable edge and i should imagine the edge will last with proper stropping.

regards gary
 

BlacknTan

Well-Known Member
Since receiving a vintage thuringian about four weeks ago, I can say with certainty that my results mirror Gary's completely. For me, the thuringian provides a slightly keener edge with no loss of smoothness over a coticule in every case but one. I no longer use my 12K Naniwa SuperStone due to the crispness of edges it produced in almost all cases.
A case could be made that I have not learned my coticules well enough, and have not maxed out the edges on them. Only more time on my stones will prove that to be true or not. Another item... Perhaps the coticule edge is still showing through the light finishing with the Thuringian. My answer to that would be that it doesn't matter to me if it is, as the Thuringian is still providing some improvement, and it doesn't really bother me if I have to use a progression of stones to get where I want to be.
The new La Dressante is very close to the Thuringian, but just a hair (pun intended) behind.
All of this begs a question that has been on my mind for some time. Just how much work does it take on a finisher to negate the effects of the previous stone, and impart it's own qualities?
 

BlacknTan

Well-Known Member
I used the 12k Naniwa most often in a progression of Naniwas, Gary.
The times I used it just as a finisher over a coticule edge, were disappointments, for my face at least, and the edge returned to the typical Naniwa 12K crispness that I achieved with the progression..

Between the crispy edges, the propensity for the stones to load up with swarf and the constant need to keep them reasonably flat, they now just sit at the bottom of the drawer...
But, there here if I ever decide that they might be able to do something for me..

P.S.
I probably suffer from the desire to do too many laps on all the stones!
 

pinklather

Well-Known Member
Gary, Thank You for this thread.

One of the issues for new guys is the cost of a fancy finisher, and the last year has only escalated that cost. 'Sounds like the Nani 12 is a good option for a guy on a budget.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
To be fair the naniwa 10k or 12k are not that cheap. i think the 12k is now about £70 in the uk. the thing is alot of new guys could use one as an inbetween to reach max keeness with out the use of paste. You could use the 12k or 10k after dilucot . if you feel the keeness is not maxed out. Once you have maxed out with 12k or 10k you can then finish on the coticule and keep the razor going with coticule. that way you can experiance the coticule edge.i'm sure bart did this back in the day with a 10k wetstone, i'm sure he will explain.

So realy you could get a nice bout with slurry stone for easily 50 to 60 pounds at about size 6.

gary

a cheaper option would be sharpening paste or balsa hone .
 

jeness

Well-Known Member
I got mine from the US from a member for 60$ shipped, it is something like 72$ when new. This price is for a 210x70mm stone, compare it to a coti of that size. Only smaller rectangles and bouts are in this price range.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
In the uk we pay more due to taxes. Invisable edge stocks them in uk .plus vat went up which has put every thing up in uk. yes your right a 8x3 coticule would cost somthing like £200 in the uk.

gary
 
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