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coticule with water

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
Bart when you explain . Speed with water moderate or slow. Which type would you prefer slow or moderate? I take it moderate would refine more with water and slow would'nt do much. Or does it just take more laps with the slow coticule as apose tom the moderate coti take less laps. They both do the same job but one is just a little slower? Or does it mean the moderate coticule will do a better job with water? the slower one has'nt got enough cutting power to pick up keeness? If you could explain if you understand what i'm asking.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
Bart when you explain . Speed with water moderate or slow. Which type would you prefer slow or moderate? I take it moderate would refine more with water and slow would'nt do much. Or does it just take more laps with the slow coticule as apose tom the moderate coti take less laps. They both do the same job but one is just a little slower? Or does it mean the moderate coticule will do a better job with water? the slower one has'nt got enough cutting power to pick up keeness? If you could explain if you understand what i'm asking.
It's a very interesting question, Gary. But one that's impossible to answer.

In theory, a slower hone cuts more shallow. The shallower a hone cuts, the keener and smoother it can define the edge. A faster hone will always leave deeper groves, which makes a slightly rougher edge. But an edge can also lend performance out of a slight jaggedness. Which is the first paradox in this story. Faster Coticules (on water) seem to deliver "crispier" edges. They shave very well leave a nice freshly shaved feeling to normal skin. Slower Coticules (on water) tend to deliver the smoothest edges, that leave normal skin unaffected. They do require perfect keenness in order to shave as close as the crispier edge. That's the challenge on a hone that leaves edges without bite.

Yet, hitting keenness with slow hones can be a challenge, not only because they're slow and take more time. If that was the case, we'd just had to do more strokes. For a practiced Coticule-honer that easily does 50-100 strokes per minute that poses not much of a problem. But there are other principles at play that can prevent the edge from responding well.
Badger&Blade member "mparker762", of whom I regret he's not a member over here, has explained it in perfect English:
mparker762_at_Badger_and_Blade.com said:
To make things worse, however, the edge takes a certain amount of damage just passing over the hone, from swarf and surface irregularities etc. Under normal circumstances (narrow bevel, light pressure) the damage is light enough and enough steel is being removed by the hone to keep this damage at a fairly low level so the sharpness improves. But with a wedge and a fine hone there's just not enough steel coming off to remove all the damage done on each stroke, so the damage accumulates and the razor won't get sharp like a full hollow would, and can even regress. You run into a related problem with high-carbide-content steels like stainless and TI's C135 steel; the carbides are so wear-resistant that the bevel isn't being abraded enough, yet the edge tip is still taking the damage with each pass.
In other words, on a wider bevel, or on harder steel, the hone can turn out so slow that the steel removal (increase in keenness) no longer makes up for the tip deterioration form pushing the razor edge first over the hone.
This is exactly why a BBW needs that haze of slurry for finishing. Because it just is too slow for finishing on merely water.
It's also the reason why finishing with the edge trailing might have some benefit, but only on hones that display the above described problem on the given razor. In all other situations edge first will be better.

All this means that on a wide bevel (i.e. wedges) a moderately fast finisher will leave a smoother edge than on a narrow bevel (i.e. a thinly ground full hollow razor). That's also the reason why a Unicot edge feels differently than a Dilucot edge. After all Unicot does work on a very narrow (secondary) bevel. Now, with slow finishing Coticules, this situation is a bit reverse. They might need Unicot on a wide bevel to truly reveal their magic and at the same time be at their smoothest doing Dilucot on a full hollow. Obviously, it all depends what you prefer in an edge. Personally, I often like what I call the "rejuvenated" skin feeling of a crispy Coticule edge. But other times my skin calls for the smoothest possible edge. If that happens, I know which razor to pick...

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Fantastic question and a wonderful answer, that explains a lot to me
Thank you both :thumbup:
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
to be onest there has been a couple of times just latley i have felt the edge on my da has'nt felt as good as normal. My thought was have i performed to many laps and made things a little uncomfortable. i will try again today . i use the da 's regular for rehoning time and time again. so basicly the edge can on water can be nocked back by swarf etc and water not cutting quite enough to repair the strip at the very edge to for a real nice edge .
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
I don't think you can do too many laps on a Coticule, although it could be a waste of steel.

If finishing on water doesn't give the results you're after, I see only 2 possibilities:

A. you diluted a bit to fast or inaccurately, and the edge was "left behind", out of range of your Coticule with water. Typical for an inexperienced honer, but highly unlikely for you, Gary.

B. the combination of the steel hardness and bevel width ran into the situation described in to previous post.
Several options to remedy that situation are addressed in several posts. A layer of tape is the easiest way. Honing with he edge trailing (stropping direction) could make a difference. Increasing pressure a bit. Finishing with halfstrokes. One rub with the slurry stone. Lather on the hone. Whatever gets the job done. Double Arrows aren't easy to hone to perfection with Dilucot.

If it means anything to you, I too have days that I can hone anything to HHT-3 and days that I struggle. It usually happens when I become all too confident with my honing. Honing with more caution to doing enough laps, slower and more precise dilution, focusing on the honing stroke more, are things that always get me back on track.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
To confident is very true. but i always practice on the da's as they arn't the easiest razor to respond to hht.I think if you can get hht 4 on these other razors will be a lot easier.

I find once bevel is set i go stright to a very milky slurry and stay there untill i feel my razor biting into the hone then i water down to real skimmed milk and do the same again and so on untill i finish on clean hone and water. Infact i finished on just 30 water laps as i felt it was feeling about right , and i couild pass of the hone. the shave was very nice and smooth as da could be. this was of coticule nu 3. i find nu 3 realy purks up after water only honing for hht.where as nu 21 will pass of misty slurry. thats the two things i have realy noticed.
 

Matt

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
(...) If finishing on water doesn't give the results you're after, I see only 2 possibilities:

A. you diluted a bit to fast or inaccurately, and the edge was "left behind", out of range of your Coticule with water. (...)
Very interesting, especially after having experienced
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. Could you please Bart be more specific about what 'inaccurate' diluting can mean?

kind regards,
Matt
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
matis said:
Bart said:
(...) If finishing on water doesn't give the results you're after, I see only 2 possibilities:

A. you diluted a bit to fast or inaccurately, and the edge was "left behind", out of range of your Coticule with water. (...)
Very interesting, especially after having experienced
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. Could you please Bart be more specific about what 'inaccurate' diluting can mean?

kind regards,
Matt

Inaccurate Diluting. With the old Dilucot, the edge only very slowly progresses. If the slurry thickens a bit, the edge develops in negative direction. If the slurry thins to rapidly, the edge is left behind and can't catch up later on in the process.

I'm going to make a comparison that I'm not overly fond of, but I'll make it anyway. Have you ever tried sanding or buffing an object (wood or metal, doesn't matter) to a high luster? If you skip one step of such a process, or move to the next "grit number" too soon, you'll never be able to remove scratches of a previous level later in the process. The gentler the abrasives used and the tougher the object you're poishing, the more critical the process becomes. Although sharpening in NOT THE SAME as polishing, the comparison survives for refining an edge.

With the "improved" Dilucot the secret in pressure. Actually with Unicot, the secret is pressure as well. Unicot delivers all honing pressure at a very narrow part of the edge (the secondary bevel). With the improved Dilucot procedure, the halfstrokes just add pressure during the dilution phase. That pressure makes the process considerably less critical, because the efficiency to "catching up' is much greater.

I suggest you just forget about the old Dilucot and use the new one.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

Matt

Well-Known Member
Great explanation, thank you very much Bart.

A bold statement indeed - I see, Ralfy, you're overwhelmed by Bart's boldness these days. :lol:

Not that I had much time for honing this week - but I've been wondering for a few days, why Dilucot at all? It's a little putting a cat among pigeons, I know. :) Recently I came across Bart's words saying that Dilucot edges are as good as Unicot at best. So, excluding the lack of need for tape and the Zen factor - does this method offer any quantifiable advantages? Is the slight difference of the bevel angle noticeable during a shave? Or does the edge last longer? Just questions of the curious mind.

Mind you, I'm just theorizing. I haven't done successful Dilucot yet, nor shaved with such edge. :)

kind regards,
Matt
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Matt,

In
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, you can read some thoughts of mine about ever so small differences between shaving smoothness and bevel width.

Best regards,
Bart.
 
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