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Double Duck and Hess owners be Aware

Toff

Well-Known Member
I have heard that Hess and some other fancy celluloid razors have the celluloid rot problem. This is the first time I have seen the Wedge distortion. Feather Edge and Golden Edge. One other razor total trash! Twisted scales and trashed blades are very common from some forms of celluloid. And they can take out blades next to them! See Photos.

Look especially at the wedges…Wow

DDrust3.jpg

DDrust2.jpg

DDrust1.jpg

DDrust4.jpg


Both razors need new scales and can be buffed out.
So we will be trying things to make them all nice again.
Respectfully
~Richard
 
Wow!

thats the worst case I have ever seen, I have seen rot that attacked the blade (from releasing gas) but the scales looked fine, these look like have erupted!

thank you for sharing

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
The problem is that the celluloid is made from a process which dissolves cellulose, either wood pulp or cotton in acid… Either: Sulfuric/Nitric or Acetic acids. The acid bath converts the cellulose in to a soft, moldable transparent plastic which is further processed by colorant and, perhaps, a chalk filler additive. It is then molded.

The resultant problem is; as the formed plastic ages, some acidic fumes are generated as the plasticizing acid is released. A similar process happens with most plastics which release plasticizer volatiles as they age and become brittle. Those plastics do not release an acid. Vapor though.
Some of the scales I have seen go bad are amber, but the pretty opaque pearlescent ones on the DD and Hess are often the culprit. They often have just a skin of some material formed over the scale. So, If the scales are pearlescent, or amber transparent, or any celluloid, keep a watch on them. Good idea anyway to prevent rust from starting on any blades.
There are some other suggestions I have read that say to use some certain products and I would ask you as individuals to search for them, I would not recommend any methods I have seen as a permanent solution.
Respectfully
~Richard
PS. I have Camphor blocks in the boxes I keep my "To-Dos" in. I had heard that they coat steel and reduce the chance of rusting. Who knows?
PPS, again a cross posting!
 
Obviously these are way too far gone, but IIRC Emmanuel posted a preventative method? Something like wiping once with acetone and a coating of shellac?

Hopefully he will spot this and correct me

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
celluloid decay is to my knowledge a self-contained process. Sealing the object will not stop the decay, though it might temporarily shield the blade from corrosive gasses that are released from the decaying celluloid. It are also these gasses that provoke the decay of neighboring celluloid parts. Ventilation is always a good idea. Bur celluloid is destined to disintegrate from the day it is conceived. A bit like humans actually.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
tat2Ralfy said:
Obviously these are way too far gone, but IIRC Emmanuel posted a preventative method? Something like wiping once with acetone and a coating of shellac?

Hopefully he will spot this and correct me

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

Yes is correct. That's a good method to stop the decay. The best way is to fix a veneer in side of the scales.
Wishes
Emmanuel
 
Bart said:
celluloid decay is to my knowledge a self-contained process. Sealing the object will not stop the decay, though it might temporarily shield the blade from corrosive gasses that are released from the decaying celluloid. It are also these gasses that provoke the decay of neighboring celluloid parts. Ventilation is always a good idea. Bur celluloid is destined to disintegrate from the day it is conceived. A bit like humans actually.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Bart i repaired many musical instruments that had a lot of celluloid parts like belly protection ply, tuner knobs.bridges etc i never saw decay due to age and i have to say these instruments are much older than mentioned razors. So i don't believe that the celluloid decomposes by itself.But i saw many times celluloid scales which not only decay but also affect the steel .I conclude therefore
that the celluloid troubled only when dresses a razor.I assume ,is the humidity or the lack of ventilation which is the most plausible.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 
You could be correct in the assumption that the environment has something to do with the decay. I will point out that Cellulose Nitrate was used as a photographic film stock.
""" from Wikipedia:
Nitrate film base was the first transparent flexible plasticized base commercially available, thanks to celluloid developments by John Carbutt, Hannibal Goodwin, and Eastman Kodak in the 1880s. Eastman was the first to manufacture this for public sale, in 1889. Unfortunately, nitrate also had the drawback that it was extremely flammable (being essentially the same chemically as guncotton) and decomposed after several decades into a no less flammable gas, leaving the film sticky and goo-like (and ultimately dust)."""
Opcit:
Wiki article
Respectfully
~Richard
 
http://yarchive.net/electr/celluloid.html said:
From: "Barry L. Ornitz" <ornitz@dpnet.net>
Subject: Re: FAQ on cosmetics posting WRONG !!! READ THIS ! ! ! ! ! !
Date: 02 Jun 1999
Newsgroups: rec.antiques.radio+phono

DBlakeart wrote in message
<19990602075026.05414.00000017@ng-co1.aol.com>...
>Ditto on the posting concerning accuracy. Nitrocellous lacquers
>were the norm in most low cost applacations from the 30's on due
>to thier sprayability.

Agreed.

>Also the info info on plastics restoration is toataily wrong.
>I'v contacted the FAQ poster befor, with no reaction.I've been
>restoring plastics professionly / full time for about 8 years.
>and YES THEY CAN BE REPAIRED AND RESTORED ! and NO NO NO NO
>NO NO NO NO,and NO ,DO NOT USE ALCHOL OF ANY TYPE OR OTHER
>CHEMICALS ON PLASTIC BEFOR TESTING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The basic information in the FAQ is excellent. Pray tell how do you do the
testing...

>Celluolse type plastics are very sensitive and it is very easy
>to damage them. Sometimes even doing a small test spot can start
>a chemical reaction that can spread uncontrollably.

Speaking as someone who worked for 18 years in the research laboratories of
one of the world's largest manufacturers of cellulosic plastics (Eastman
Chemical), I see this as blatant BS.

Yes, cellulosic plastics are very sensitive to many solvents. But the
solvents DO NOT start the degradation reactions. The degradation begins
the day the cellulosic plastic is made. There are residual acids present
including sulfuric, nitric for cellulose nitrate, acetic for cellulose
acetate, etc. These acids are supposed to be washed out of the plastic
during its precipitation and neutralized. But a little always remains.
Over time, this acid hydrolyses the cellulose "backbone" breaking the
polymer chain. When this happens, the esterification acid is also released
which further promotes the degradation. In a fairly short time, the
plastic can turn into a gooey mess. Once the process gets started, there
is little you can do.

On the earliest sign of this, usually a slight acid smell (acrid, like
vinegar with the cellulose acetate), take the plastic and wash it in warm
water. Then soak it overnight in a solution of baking soda. Wash again
and dry thoroughly. This will neutralize any surface acids and may prolong
the life of the item. To minimize the future decomposition of cellulosics,
keep them dry but with air flow around them. Museums have learned the hard
way that celluloid and other old plastics, kept under glass still
decompose. The moving air tends to remove acid vapors that are formed, and
thus slows the reaction.

Using alcohol or other solvents on cellulosic plastics does NOT cause this
degradation. However, since many solvents can soften or dissolve
cellulosics, you should be careful - typically using such as solvent as a
last choice.

>I think people assume that because a posting has a "FAQ" heading
>it must be right, well it's not neccesarly. In fact it may be
>dead wrong , and cause damage !! I hope the poster of this info
>will concider the limits of his/or her knowage , and change or
>remove this section on cosmetics . Misinfomation helps no one.
>DAN @ OUTSIDER STUDIOS


I agree, and this is why I agree with the FAQ's. I hope you follow your
own advice too.

There are no magic cleaning techniques for old radios that do an excellent
job with no work. If the radio is worth restoring, it is worth the labor
to do things correctly. This means "elbow grease" with soap and water
first. If stronger measures are needed, use them carefully as these can
easily do damage if you are careless. In all cases, testing a small,
inconspicuous area is a good way to start.

73, Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ ornitz@dpnet.net
 
So I should not keep my cracked ice Dubl Duck in a leather case? I live in a dry climate - San Diego, but it is a razor I only use every other week or so because it still has all the gold on it. I also put mineral oil on the blades if they are going in a case. Most of my scales are horn or bone, but is mineral oil bad for celluloid?

Thanks you folks,

Jack
 
Since no-one has commented, I shall have to say that the jury is out and all the info above is all that I have.
Respectfully
~Richard
 
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