Rebuilding a bevel..............help needed

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Hi guys I am in the process of rebuilding the bevel on an old Thomas Turner and Sons
the problem I have is just how long it is taking, I have been doing this for HOURS! and I mean Hours!!!!
Its day 2 as well becuase when I eventually got the entire edge to pass tnt I realised I had given it a very nice frown :mad:
Also if I want to keep the bevel down to a serious size and angle I need 6, yes you did read that right 6 layers of tape on a hollow grind!!! I eventually decided to force a good smile out of it because of the ridiculous size of the bevel at the heel and toe So breadknife away, and here I am after doing this to the point of frustration on and off all day.

I am using a 400/1000 waterstone and have had to re-lap it since I started, I really am at my wits end with this thing.

Any help handy tips etc etc just might save this beautiful razors life
Thanks
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Could you somehow sneak in a picture, Ralfy?

6 layers. I've been there. Take my word, it's over the top Ralfy. I had a serious discussion about the compressibility of tape a few days ago. We all know that isn't significant with 1, 2 or 3 layers. Even 4. But 6 is not good. Probably the razor is riding on the edge of the tape as well, and it'll introduce all kinds of anomalies and variables into the bevel. What's the resulting bevel angle, by the way?

With more information, I might have additional tips.

Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Ok according to the bevel angle calculator 5 layers is giving me 16.3 degrees, so I figured that to try and speed things up a bit another layer should be about right, I will black the edge again and do a few strokes so you can see whats happening, of course all this could just be my state of mind which is far from good at this time I am afraid :(
 

Smythe

Well-Known Member
6 layers?!... on a hollow ground?!... are you sure it's a hollow ground?... pix please?
Oh... and what type of water-stone are you using?

Sometimes if you use a narrow stone you could get frowns...
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
have you usd the marker test ralfy to see how much of the edge is actualy making contact with the hone. i would of thought the tape thing calculator was for wedges only or a realy old worn out hollow. I use marker test all the time you should also see how thick the bevel is by how much marker in width is being removed i should also imagine you may have to use rolling x to keep a nice smile. Are your hones cutting as well as they should you will need to lap them often as they may of glazed a little. its a pitty you did'nt live closer you could we could of worked it out i'm sure bart will no exactly what to do once he see some pictures .
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Yeah I always use the marker test, my 400/1000 is brand new and lapped and its a full size bench stone, I am using a rolling X because of the smile, like I say whats doing my head in is the time its taking just to get this thing passing tnt, I have done circles, swooping x and rolling x, I even did a few laps diagonal with the heel leading then the same with the toe leading and plenty of pressure, I know I can get it down in the end but Jeez its not supposed to take hours and hours just to reform the bevel is it?
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Ok heres some pics, I blacked the edge and just did a few strokes to show the shape of the bevel, thanks for looking

Photo0434.jpg

Photo0433.jpg

Photo0435.jpg

Photo0436.jpg
 

justin

Well-Known Member
That looks obnoxious Ralfy. What is the size of the blade? Would taking an 1/8 off be a good idea (with the tape on)? I'd ditch that bitch.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
justin said:
That looks obnoxious Ralfy. What is the size of the blade? Would taking an 1/8 off be a good idea (with the tape on)? I'd ditch that bitch.
I know its Gnarly Man, no way intend to ditch it, She is a Thomas Turner and Son "Sharper than a Serpents Tooth"
Not many of these old girls survived the last 100yrs ish.
 

rayman

Well-Known Member
Ralfy,

Try something for me. Take that tape off and leave 1 piece on. Then mark the edge and let it dry. Take the razor and make one pass straight down and one pass straight back on your 400 or 1000 grit stone. Look at both sides of the edge and see if the black marks are in the same location, only on different sides. If they are, cut a piece of tape the exact length of the black mark and put it above it on the spine. If the marks are different on both sides, you will need to add the tape just above these marks and only on that side.
Once you have this completed, start to hone the edge straight up and down or even with a x-stroke, but not a rolling-x.

This will cause the dark spots, which are the high spots, to start to be removed and bring the edge back to normal. When you have a straight line across the edge, take off the tape, re-mark it and do one stroke up and one stroke back. The line should be very close, if not completely removed along the edge.

Let me know what happens.

Ray
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Of course I will try this Ray and I thank you for your wisdom
I know the black marks will not match as the blade is warped, they will be reversed e.g half tape in center one side and 2 pieces toe and heel the other
I read this technique in the other post you wrote, and for some reason it bent my head! lol
But I have total faith in your knowledge and experience
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
I'm having a hard time believing that the bevel calculator would say to add 5 layers. It's possible, but could you please measure again and let me know the numbers. I'll check the calculator to make sure there's no flaw.

Futhermore, with that tick pack of tape on, does the razor still rest on a rim above the spine, or does it now rest on the rim of the tape? In the latter case, the resulting angle can be anything.

Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Thanks again guys this is ace ;)
O.K. heres the figures for the calculator, also I am now just starting Ray's method so I can't check see if the tape is messing with the honing, but now you point it out I can see that so much tape is going to cause the Razor to sit wrong on the Hone

Width of Spine= 4.77 mm
Width of Blade to the top of any hone wear= 18.41 mm
Angle with 5 layers of tape= 16.6

TBH I didnt check the blade size again after the breadknifing, I see that I can still achieve 16.3 with 4 layers

However with spine wear the centre of the spine comes in at a skinny 4.51, meaning that 16 degrees is not even on the scale
Dayam!
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Ray, you are a genius!
Thank you thank you thank you
Its taken all evening and now the bevel is flat and even!!
A little wider than I would have liked, but at this stage I dont give a damn
and even the warp looks smaller somehow?
Its now got an appointment with my coti, and then my whiskers!!
Ace

I will post some pics to show ya'll the new level bevel :thumbup:
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Well I just checked the edge against my coti and its got a frown thats nearly as big as mine!

Hero to zero 0.8 seconds :thumbdown:

as this point I want to walk away
surely its not just me that finds this sooo frustrating?
 

rayman

Well-Known Member
Ralfy,
Once you can see that the edge is coming off equally from one end to the other, put one piece of tape on the spine and start honing on your 400 grit until you get rid of the frown. Then move to the 1000 grit and smooth things up. Done.... ready for the coti.
This will take a little getting use to, but you have already done the hard part. Don't be afraid to use some pressure either.

Keep me posted,

Ray
 

justin

Well-Known Member
This technique works wonders. I actually just got done using it on a recent ebay acquisition. Thanks for spreading the word Ray. I never knew about it until you posted it in my thread earlier.

Thanks dude. :thumbup:

Justin
 

rayman

Well-Known Member
justin said:
This technique works wonders. I actually just got done using it on a recent ebay acquisition. Thanks for spreading the word Ray. I never knew about it until you posted it in my thread earlier.

Thanks dude. :thumbup:

Justin

Justin,
No big deal, glad to help.

Ralfy,
One other thing I forgot to tell you. When you go to the 1k stone, don't stop until you can easily pop hairs, on your arm or leg, along the whole edge. Then you are ready to move to the Coti and start honing.

Ray
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Thanks again Ray, this technique works very well for sure
one thing though, how do I hone out the frown without breadknifing? maybe just keep working the ends until they overtake it?
 
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