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Veins and blades

pinklather

Well-Known Member
Noob still learning here.

Some of the interest for the coticule is it being thought as the stone of choice for the heavy sheffield grind. Today I hear from a retailer (forgoing a sale in the process - so kudos for not just going for the sale) that only the harder veins will withstand the heavy sheffield. He recommended either La Veinette or Le Petit Blanche. The possibility of chipping or cracking the softer stones was mentioned. I've not heard anything like this. If this is the case, not just any coti will do. Is this common thinking amongst the coti users?
 

DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
pinklather said:
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Nope. First of all, coticules do not need to be lapped very much at all. Though I like a flat hone, it is not necessary with a coticule. Second, even the softest I have seen will outlast you. I have seen some very old stones that had a noticeable dish, but I have also seen two inch wide butcher knives ground to a quarter inch just from honing. Both were half a century old and used professionally. Neither will happen with your hobby.

In addition, for most large wedgy razors it is smart to tape the spine for a secondary bevel to save time and metal, rather than sharpen a huge bevel. I would set the bevel with one layer of tape on a dmt600 or so, add another layer or two and finish on a coticule. It provides a wonderful edge on mine. They seem to glide through the beard.

If your dealer knew a lot about coticules he would have mentioned some other very hard stones like La Verte or the hybrid side of Les Latneuses. To take Bart's line, there is very, very little difference in the performance of the different layers. There is a difference in their speed and feedback.

If you are looking for your first stone, PL, some of the guys with extensive experience will chime in to suggest one. It is a very personal thing after you know the stones. I have one friend who is concentrating on just the La Petite Blanche just because he likes them. I don't even know if I have a LPB. The point is, they all work, but some feel special to each of us, and some are easier to use in the dilucot process.

Enjoy the ride, Denny
 

TM280

Well-Known Member
I managed to chip a very hard Les Latneuses on the sink. I was holding a Sheffield razor in the other hand. Does that count? :lol:

regards,
Torolf
 

pinklather

Well-Known Member
Dennis, thank you! It gave me a start to hear I now had to worry that honing a wedge could/would damage a stone.

I understand the older sheffield wedges benefit from some 45 deg. x-strokes without tape for spine wear correction - to be done before any restoration efforts - then tape for the subsequent stones. The wacker wedge gets 2 layers - I would imagine the sheffield would need that also. More than a little of this is to finally try a worthy edge on a sheffield. The harder steels like the asagi, but I have to conclude I've never tried a good edge on a heavy sheffield.

TM280: I love irreverent humor - thank you!

I've tried to buy 3 stones now. A La Veinette from Maurice - until delivered costs exceeded 2x a local select stone, Jarrod thought the wedge could be an issue for his existing stones - call next Monday as he unpacks a shipment, and and honorable member here for a beautiful Les Lat. 3 strikes, but I'm still swinging.

Again, I appreciate your kind help.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
If I may just add, don't forget we have the bevel angle calculator in the sharpening academy, that will allow you to determine how many layers of tape you need to optimise the bevel angle on wedge grinds. Also I have never heard of running a wedge on the Hines before adding any tape? I fail to see the benefit.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
I don't really know where Jarod is, but it sounds like in the states. If you want to get a stone from one of us, put a request into the Marketplace and you will have more offers than you can use from the this side of the pond. Be specific about bout vs. bench, etc. and what would benefit you the most. Are you an experienced honer, but just new to coticules? If so, you can benefit from just about any layer and with some practice will learn your stone. Some are a little easier for beginners, but ALL will work, especially with Unicot. Language thing again. They will work with Dilucot, also, but some are easier than others.

We'll get you geared up. Denny
 

danjared

Well-Known Member
pinklather said:
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The prices for these stones is going up everywhere because of a price increase at Ardennes (to help fund the development of a new mine so that they can continue to exist). La Veinette and Les Latneuses prices are just about doubled, if not more (I can't recall off-hand).

Knowing Jarrod, his advice is probably just based off your concern and not necessarily because he believes that this is a problem. Many (including myself) will attest to it not being a real issue (barring carelessness or clumsiness, as Torolf humorously alludes to).

Any vein that Ardennes-Coticule sells for sharpening will fit your needs. It's merely a matter of learning to use the tools. You're better off buying now while there are still stones available at old prices and spending the additional time learning instead of fussing about what to get.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
If you're damaging a Coticule from sharpening a razor, you are using way too much pressure.
If a stone couldn't even withstand a razor, even a wedge, then what else could one sharpen on it?
There is nothing I can think of that would be gentler for a hone than razor sharpening. That said, Coticules have quite a following in the woodworking world. Trust me that the stones see much more abuse (if we must call it that way) in a wooworking environment.

On the same note, I don't see why Sheffield wedges should be harder than other razors. In fact, I recall reports of Rockwell tests stating that these ancient blades are softer, rather than harder.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

danjared

Well-Known Member
pinklather said:
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I would like to see what exactly he said to see his reasoning (or if there's some misunderstanding going on).

I wouldn't consider those stones to be the hardest. Certainly, my La Petite Blanche and one of the Les Latneuses I've had are not the hardest, and they are certainly softer than the La Dressantes I've tried (and some other stones). That sad, you can quite easily gouge even a translucent Arkansas stone with soft steel if you dig the edge into the stone, but that would fall under abuse.
 

pinklather

Well-Known Member
Bart & DJ, What you say makes sense to me too. Compared to hard steels, sheffields feel like cast steel, rather than forged - not as dense, no ringing in the hollows, by comparison. Though I've not thought an Arkansas stone could be chipped by abusive stroking w/ a razor - it still seems like anything approaching normal honing operations should be alright w/ most stones. I've had one smiling barber's notch dig into a soft naniwa 8k, but that's very unusual, and points to my stroke as the cause. It's entirely possible I misunderstand Jarrod - and his general helpfulness lead me to give every benefit of a doubt to him. It is a pleasure to speak w/ someone who LOVES and knows those stones.

As you might guess, my experience at this point is in months, not years. 7 months and about 70 blades honed. I thought being specific there could eliminate some wondering.

It sounds like any fear of chewing up a stone is overstated - which is a relief.

Thank you again, Gentlemen.
 

pinklather

Well-Known Member
Yes, there was a photo of an extreme version of dishing on another thread. I don't know if much pressure is used with plane blades or chisels, but a razor would seem too fragile to dig into a stone with any hardness.
 
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