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Vintage Coticules

Karl

Active Member
Hi All,

I've heard much about these vintage coticules having a garnet content of 70% or more!

I wonder how these would perform generally?

I would imagine they are very fast cutters and exellent polishers but so are most coticules I can't imagine they would create a better edge than recently mined ones. Just maybe you get that edge quicker.

These vintage stones tend to carry a high price tag too. Is that because of the collectability or do they outperform our treasures of the Ardennes?

If anyone one has had experience with these high garnet content vintage stones I would be very interested in their opinions.

Karl
 

decraew

Well-Known Member
I have one vintage coticule. I like working with it, but honestly, both my La Petite Blanche and my Les Latneuses are faster cutters.

So the vintage ones do NOT necessarily outperform new ones. There may be individual cases where this is the case though.

As to the price ? Pfff our little community is not always that rational when it comes to buying gear ...
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
Coticules were formed 470 million years ago. So what possible reason should there be that makes coticules mined 50 years ago have more garnets than coticules mined today ?
 

Karl

Active Member
Thanks decraew that pretty much confirms what I thought.

I agree BlueDun.

I'm sure it is a myth to help drive the prices of these earlier mined ones up but I have heard this statement a few times on other forums and from sellers, the "best deposits" have already been exploited and some have a much higher garnet content as much as 70%.

How would one know a stone has a higher garnet content than another? If it cuts faster it could be to do with the shape and size of the garnets rather than the amount.

Unless one of the members of coticule.be can say some of the earlier mined stones did have a higher concenration of garnets then I will assume this is rubbish.
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
Seriously, even if there were coticules around with 70% garnets .... What's the point?
Take the right La Dressante and you are in the metal removal class of a 1000-2000 grit. And then what about the other end of the spectrum, finishing that is? I cannot imagine how one would like to have a finisher with such high garnet content that will chew your edge away rather than polishing it ...
So maybe there are such coticules. And if there are, I probably own one of these. And I can say that it is a nice hone. But that is nothing I cannot say about some of my new coticules too.

Cheers
BlueDun
 
G

Guest

Karl said:
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I took the liberty of boldfacing the problem bits.

That said, I still don't know what layer my Coticule comes from. Bart told me, and it was something obscure or not being mined any more, I forget. And I really, really don't want to know. I saw Bart hone a number of razors with it, it worked, so if it doesn't work for me, it's an operator error. Throw slurry from another layer into the equation and the whole vintage nonsense becomes even more absurd.
 

kinematic

Well-Known Member
A coticule with a garnet content of 70% (if such a stone even exists) will not cut faster. If anything, it will cut slower. The garnets in such a stone will be too densely packed to move around freely in the slurry wich limits their sharpening ability.
 

Karl

Active Member
Thanks for clearing that up everyone.

I think it is pretty fair to say then that this notion is nonsenese and that you are much better off buying a stone from Ardennes than any of these expensive vintage stones for sale claiming to be better than the newly mined ones.

If I come across a vintage coticule at a good price say in a second hand tool fair then I would probably buy it but from what everyone has said here don't pay any more than Ardennes price because you are not getting more for your money.

Cheers,

Karl
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
It is of course, as every one already figured out, blatant nonsense to state that the best Coticule layers are depleted. As with all mining activity throughout the world, Coticule rock is mined from the top down, or -differently put- from what is the easiest to extract to what demands more effort to get.
Now, imagine that we would have some consensus on what is to be considered "better" when talking about Coticule rock (a consensus that doesn't exist actually), it would obviously be bollocks to think that the most accessible rock, or even the top-most rock, would purely coincidentally also be the "best" rock. And if we take into account that the Coticule veins run more or less vertically, there is no reason to presume that the layers become less good at greater depths.

On top of that, real life experience with both recently mined Coticules and Yesteryears extraction, reveals that both groups show the same kind of variability.
I believe the whole "vintage is better" fable is sprouted from the imagination of persons who are trying to get the highest price in a sale or auction. I personally would never pay more for an old Coticule than a second hand price.

Best regards,
Bart.
 

decraew

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
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But why ? If the coticule layer is thick enough, if the stone is freshly lapped etc, isn't an old coticule worth as much as a new one of the same dimensions ? It's not as if they become obsolete.
 

maro

Well-Known Member
Why? Hmmm... becasue an old (i.e. "vintage") Coticule of the same dimensions/thickness is not covered by the replacement warranty from Ardennes if something bad happens? :rolleyes:
 

decraew

Well-Known Member
OK Maro, you have a point. But the seller of a "vintage" coticule might give you the same service.
 

maro

Well-Known Member
Yes, he might if he was willing to do so and if he had more "vintage" coticules serving as the replacement stock. But how probable is it? :)
 
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