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Why all the hate?
- Thread starter Basil
- Start Date
G
Guest
Ummm... Every forum has its pets (and pet peeves). I don't care whether a forum is Coticule friendly or not. All I am interested in is whether the protagonists of alternative solutions are able to come up with proof beyond a barrage of exclamation marks and a track record of commercial activities.
As for the original question: when personal beliefs and religious zealotry meet, hate is usual the result. Inferiority complexes and small penises are also known to be contributing factors. I would strongly encourage anyone who develops strong personal feelings over an IP connection to have his head checked.
Regards,
Robin
As for the original question: when personal beliefs and religious zealotry meet, hate is usual the result. Inferiority complexes and small penises are also known to be contributing factors. I would strongly encourage anyone who develops strong personal feelings over an IP connection to have his head checked.
Regards,
Robin
:Some place called straight razor something or other..
It's just annoying when someone asks for input and your made to feel you are wrong because you suggested something other people didn't want to hear.
In this case they asked what go use after a 3/8 combo stone and said use a coticule because it's good as a finisher and yOu can end up using it to replace the rest eventually
I heard excuses like they already have a corse stone they wanted a finisher.
The 12k works good since they have a naiwan progression already.
After a few responses I didn't bother to look again. I just don't like the close minded mentality towards something differen.
It's just annoying when someone asks for input and your made to feel you are wrong because you suggested something other people didn't want to hear.
In this case they asked what go use after a 3/8 combo stone and said use a coticule because it's good as a finisher and yOu can end up using it to replace the rest eventually
I heard excuses like they already have a corse stone they wanted a finisher.
The 12k works good since they have a naiwan progression already.
After a few responses I didn't bother to look again. I just don't like the close minded mentality towards something differen.
The*Cincinnati*Kid
Well-Known Member
I don't know if I would call it hate, maybe frustration that they have yet to gain a satisfactory edge from a coticule, or have just never tried one and like the expensive but simple to follow progression of synthetics, and then a finishing stone. Who knows, but if I do reply to a thread regarding coticules on straight razor zone, it is usualy in a PM & I always suggest that they do their homework before deciding & purchasing, to see what will work best for them. I give them the links to coticule.be & B&B, wich may be frowned upon, I'm not sure but thats why I PM them. I usualy try to avoid conflict if at all possible.
Regards
Louis.
An interesting observation.
I am not sure it's hate either, but it seems pretty clear that there are quite polarized opinions on the Coticule.
As to exactly why that is has been discussed ad nauseam in here and on other forums as well.
I myself don't quite see what the hubbub is all about.
The Coticule is a fine honing tool, I find myself using my Coticules quite a bit.
I also use other naturals and Synthetic systems.
They are good too!
To me, it is more about the user than the stone.
I get fine results from all my hones, after I have spent the required time learning how to use them that is.
It seems pretty clear that a lot of people get all or most of their honing needs covered by the Coticule. What could be better?
Others prefer other systems, equally fine by me
I am not sure it's hate either, but it seems pretty clear that there are quite polarized opinions on the Coticule.
As to exactly why that is has been discussed ad nauseam in here and on other forums as well.
I myself don't quite see what the hubbub is all about.
The Coticule is a fine honing tool, I find myself using my Coticules quite a bit.
I also use other naturals and Synthetic systems.
They are good too!
To me, it is more about the user than the stone.
I get fine results from all my hones, after I have spent the required time learning how to use them that is.
It seems pretty clear that a lot of people get all or most of their honing needs covered by the Coticule. What could be better?
Others prefer other systems, equally fine by me
Hate may or may not be too strong a word for this instance or previous instances. I personally believe the stones are not the real "issue" here. Lynn Abrams has said in previous posts that Coticules are "can-do" stones, even if he has also mentioned that he preferred other stones and other methods of sharpening. We all know that the management at Straight Razor Place does not get along with Bart. It is this relationship that I believe is at the center of all the Coticule controversy on that forum - well that and maybe marketing and money.
I am sure that for many of us it is hard to separate Beglian Coticules from Coticule.be and Bart. For me, the association of Bart and Coticule.be with Belgian Coticules is positive. For others, the association will be negative, as I believe it is in this case. Likewise, there is an obvious association between Lynn Abrams and Straight Razor Place. The same can be said of Joel and Badger and Blade.
When it comes down to it, I am not sure why anyone bothers talking about Belgian Coticules on Straight Razor Place. By now, it should be clear that those discussions go nowhere. Also, you wont get factual information on that website about Belgian Coticules either. We have Coticule.be for these purposes.
All in all, this is just another all to common case of people on shaving forums not being able to disagree without being disagreeable.
Enjoy your shaves, gentlemen.
I am sure that for many of us it is hard to separate Beglian Coticules from Coticule.be and Bart. For me, the association of Bart and Coticule.be with Belgian Coticules is positive. For others, the association will be negative, as I believe it is in this case. Likewise, there is an obvious association between Lynn Abrams and Straight Razor Place. The same can be said of Joel and Badger and Blade.
When it comes down to it, I am not sure why anyone bothers talking about Belgian Coticules on Straight Razor Place. By now, it should be clear that those discussions go nowhere. Also, you wont get factual information on that website about Belgian Coticules either. We have Coticule.be for these purposes.
All in all, this is just another all to common case of people on shaving forums not being able to disagree without being disagreeable.
Enjoy your shaves, gentlemen.
Bart
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely correct, kind sir.Birnando said:An interesting observation.
I am not sure it's hate either, but it seems pretty clear that there are quite polarized opinions on the Coticule.
As to exactly why that is has been discussed ad nauseam in here and on other forums as well.
I myself don't quite see what the hubbub is all about.
The Coticule is a fine honing tool, I find myself using my Coticules quite a bit.
I also use other naturals and Synthetic systems.
They are good too!
To me, it is more about the user than the stone.
I get fine results from all my hones, after I have spent the required time learning how to use them that is.
It seems pretty clear that a lot of people get all or most of their honing needs covered by the Coticule. What could be better?
Others prefer other systems, equally fine by me
It is only shaving. A question "what is the best soap/razor/hone/brush/etc" is in every possible way too individual to answer. It not only depends on one's beard and skin properties, but also on parameters, like personal skill, style, habits, shaving frequency, environment, season of the year, fatigue, and so on.
That makes a choice for "the best" almost irrelevant, certainly once we narrow the discussion to only quality equipment. Dealing with hones specifically, Coticules, Thuringians, Japanese hones have been around long enough to earn a reputation. We can add Naniwas and Shaptons, and a couple other brands of man-made hones to that list of sharpening solutions that work. The choice can be inspired by many reasons, even sentimental ones (they are important to me as someone who prefers a traditional razor). I find it far more important to focus on how to get the best from the choice I made, than to waste my precious time second guessing that choice. Give Jimi Hendrix any cheap guitar and any cheap amp, and he would still play better than any of those guitar players who hang around in music stores discussing gear.
As the guy who started this website, I do my best to steer it away from this kind of senseless gear comparisons; that hardly ever tell users what they really should know: how to get the best from what they already own. And that it takes time, patience and perseverance to reach that goal.
Roald Amundsen reached the South Pole in 1911. Today I see hikers in the Belgian Ardennes going on a picnic, while making a fool of themselves with their expensive equipment that Amundsen hadn't even heard about. But they don't realize it. That is the risk if one surrounds oneself with anoraks. A reality check on occasion doesn't hurt.
By the way: polarized opinions about Coticules seem to only sprout from a small but loud and (relatively) powerful peer group on the forum that I won't name here. These guys each have their own reasons for that, as far as I can tell, none of which has much to do with the actual capabilities of these hones to sharpen a razor.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Well no matter what happens anywhere else I'm glad we have this place to learn all we can about these wonderful stones.
I myself have seen my shaves become even better after takin my time to learn my coticule inside and out. I still don't know all the secrets but I will someday!
I myself have seen my shaves become even better after takin my time to learn my coticule inside and out. I still don't know all the secrets but I will someday!
rtedwards
Active Member
I feel the need to pop in from lurking and just say that this post is an example of why I admire this site and its participants so much. This subject could have turned into another internet gang fight and the examples of such behavior are too numerous to be worth mentioning. But you folk are adult, rational, measured, and knowledgable and funny, and that is why I keep reading here.
I live in the land of self-serving, incoherent ravers, and sometimes I lose touch with adult reality. Humor helps, but so does going to virtual places where well meaning people interact like grownups for a useful common goal. It's only shaving, but isn't it nice to compare notes on a hobby and mild obsession without feeling like you are dealing with the sandlot bully in grammar school all over again?
I live in the land of self-serving, incoherent ravers, and sometimes I lose touch with adult reality. Humor helps, but so does going to virtual places where well meaning people interact like grownups for a useful common goal. It's only shaving, but isn't it nice to compare notes on a hobby and mild obsession without feeling like you are dealing with the sandlot bully in grammar school all over again?
Bart
Well-Known Member
altshaver said:
I can only hope that you're either incorrect, or overestimating the situation. I don't monopolize Coticule.be and Coticule.be does not monopolize how people think about the Belgian hones. My problems on SRP didn't start before I demonstrated that sharpening razors with only one stone (and truly only one, not one + a bevel setter + finishing pastes) was a practicable option. The more impossible it became to refute that idea, the more the opponents refuted the messenger of the idea. It was a classic case of dissidence, and how difficult it can be for someone with access to power to not abuse that power for getting rid of an annoying situation. But it is seldom the dissident who caused the reality that led to the annoyance. Or in other words: I have no influence over the abrasive properties of Coticules. I can only describe them. Only an idiot (excusez le mot) would bring Adolf Hiltler's endorsement of Volkswagen into account of a decision to drive such a car or not. Of course, I can see why a person would consider the availability of information as an important factor in a decision to purchase a tool, certainly if that tool may provide a challenge to use. Straight razors provide such a challenge over 5-bladed cartridge razors and it appears that Coticules provide also more challenge than a battery of 5 successive synthetic hones (1K, 2K, 4K, 8K & 12K). I am sure that the often posed notion that straight razors, being the more challenging solution, outperform cartridge razors, is pure humbug. And equally: neither do Coticules outperform potentially easier sharpening set-ups. But it is both times the inherent challenge that provides the joy of the activity. "I can't wait for my beard to grow", is an often heard sigh among straight razor users, hard to understand for a cartridge user. "I can't wait for my razors to become dull" is also regularly heard, here on Coticule.be...
A forteriori, I don't know any tool, for which many users develop such an emotional attachment, than a Coticule, except maybe the Japanese hones. I don't see someone growing emotionally attached to e.g. a Norton 4K/8K. That says zero about sharpening abilities, but in my opinion all about what really sets them apart. And perhaps also why non-Coticule aficionados may occasionally feel intimidated by the enthusiasm of a Coticule user. I think that explains what Basil experienced better than the assumed effects of my charming personality.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Emmanuel
Well-Known Member
It is a matter of preference and mentality. I can't claim that coticile is the best world finisher but is like a fast food and a gourmet speciality in a famous restaurant.Is like a quartz watch(for me a quartz is just a vibrator) and an expensive mechanical.Is like an electrical violin and one of the old Cremona's school.And finally if you like a radiator and a handmade fireplace.
Best regards
Emmanuel
Best regards
Emmanuel
Why keep using the word hate? Martyr complex?
Personally I have not been able to achieve a great shaving edge on the razors I've tried using the coticules I've tried to finish honing. So generally I'll recommend something else. But that doesn't take away from what others can do or have done. Like Robin pointed out, it's helpful if someone who disagrees can explain their disagreement, but disagreement itself doesn't equal "hate"
if someone already has a naniwa 3k/8k, getting the 12k as a finisher seems natural to me (even though technically it is synthetic) though there are finishers I prefer to that hone
Personally I have not been able to achieve a great shaving edge on the razors I've tried using the coticules I've tried to finish honing. So generally I'll recommend something else. But that doesn't take away from what others can do or have done. Like Robin pointed out, it's helpful if someone who disagrees can explain their disagreement, but disagreement itself doesn't equal "hate"
if someone already has a naniwa 3k/8k, getting the 12k as a finisher seems natural to me (even though technically it is synthetic) though there are finishers I prefer to that hone
Matt
Well-Known Member
hoglahoo said:
OK, sorry, but there's something I gotta ask. Have you tried shaving with a razor finished by someone else on coticule?
Or tried Unicot? (you get a 'pure coticule edge' this way, with hardly any effort)What in turn seems natural to me, is saying "hey I got this stone, I can finish the razor on it for you, so you'll be able to decide on your own". Why not try before buying?
regards,
Matt
Only once! The same person honed a three-razor set on three different hones (one being a coticule), and I did not know which was which until I shaved with them. And then it was fairly evident to me which had been finished on the coticule, but outside of that little experiment I don't think I've ever shaved with another razor someone else finished honing using a coticuleMatt said:OK, sorry, but there's something I gotta ask. Have you tried shaving with a razor finished by someone else on coticule?
Yes I have, but only with three or four razors. I didn't find the end result to be much different than using other, faster hones to get to the finishing stage first and then finishing with the coticule so I didn't pursue that honing methodMatt said:
Actually I just did that recently and am waiting for the results. I guess the gist of my answer regarding the person asking about what finisher to use is that I would recommend something I have had better success with personallyMatt said:What in turn seems natural to me, is saying "hey I got this stone, I can finish the razor on it for you, so you'll be able to decide on your own". Why not try before buying?