Any thoughts?

[The*Cincinnati*Kid]

I have an idea, but have never tried it. To be perfectly honest I have absolutely no restoration experience, but I had this thought after reading some restoration posts asking how to keep tang markings in tact during restoration. I used to work at a country club, and some golfers used lead tape to modify the head weight of certain golf clubs. I was thinking that if someone was going to use a bench grinder during their restoration process that lead tape may aid in keeping shallow tang markings alive during the different stages of grinding/sanding/polishing, ect.... I don't know just a thought. I would like to hear what some of you experienced restorers think of this idea.

Thanks,
Louis

 

[Smythe]

There is a reason why they stopped using lead in the manufacture of razors and other cutlery... the stuff is carcinogenic.

But golf clubs are used out-doors (like lead wheel-weights on your vehicle) and are not subject to the conditions of restoration.

When we restore razors, we often sand or grind creating dist, though we wear protective gear, the dust get's everywhere, and no matter how mush we clean, there will always be some residue left that will eventually get into our bodies, or our loved-ones.

The best ways to protect those factory marks on the tang...
Glue a strip of sandpaper to flat surface, or you could also place soft material such a bit of cloth between the sandpaper and the flat surface because some tangs are not perfectly flat, and remove as much pitting as possible and be at peace with the pits we cannot remove.

Though some may disagree, but I believe these razors are antique... they should look like antiques.

 

[Guest]

Though some may disagree, but I believe these razors are antique... they should look like antiques.

Not if you want to sell them. And anyhow, what about all those razor loving types who recently invested heavily into buffers and stuff?

And, yes, you are absolutely right. I feel sick each time I see a vintage Solingen blade "buffed to a high sheen mirror polish". And that is not mentioning the bowling ball scales.

 

[Smythe]

Indeed it is about selling razors… those buffed-up blades… but it is a shame, most folks don’t know 99% of open razors were never buffed on the face. They always left the vertical striations on the face and would simply glaze the tang and back.

Another interesting bit of trivia… Those old near wedge ground razors with the Barbers Notch, when they did polish the face to mirror, they never polished inside the notch. File cuts on the tang were never polished because doing so would flatten the sharp points making them almost useless.

But we restore today, an anxiety to display, a pretty little shiny blade away. Anally polishing every tiny little crevasse, nether the makers mark, or etching, escapes that evil wheel of canvas.

 

[Guest]

Well, any trained monkey can polish a piece of metal. In fact, I think the sheer mindless stupidity of the process makes it prone to appealing to said knuckle dragging humanoids. A perfect matte finish, however, such as can be witnessed on vintage Solingen razors from the pre war era, is rather hard to produce. So hard, apparently, that I have yet to see a new one that matches the quality of the vintage ones. To think that a good number of these have been mutilated because the (typically rural American) razor prole likes his metal things shiny is, well, an abomination. And that is not to mention so called customisations including, but not limited to, intricate Dremel "work" (apparently, an AE euphemism for "therapeutic measure for the differently abled").

Then again, the same people probably think that this is a high class car, so they cannot really be blamed.

To each their own, de gustibus, and all that. I just wish the acrylics loving buffer brigade would focus their tremendous talents on Asian import junk or Dubl Sux instead of German razors. Because these razors are part of our cultural heritage. And I really wish more people had the courage to stand up and say, 'now wait a minute, what are those plastic toy scales doing on that vintage razor, and why has it been polished beyond recognition?' Yes, it will cost you your account, but then again, who needs an account with a site that is run by semi trained monkeys?

Regards,
Robin

 

[jasp]

To each their own, de gustibus, and all that. I just wish the acrylics loving buffer brigade would focus their tremendous talents on Asian import junk or Dubl Sux instead of German razors. Because these razors are part of our cultural heritage. And I really wish more people had to courage to stand up and say, 'now wait a minute, what are those plastic toy scales doing on that vintage razor, and why has it been polished beyond recognition?'

I feel this exact same way.

 

[Toff]

I am sensitive to pedigree and skin tone and all of that. In many ways I can agree with the thoughts above. Howsomever, I believe that a badly compromised, rusty, filthy, beaten, unloved, blade of impeccable manufacture does deserve another chance. I like to keep it simple but I am dealing with a nineteenth century W&B 6/8ths that was rusted completely, frowned upon by a honer, scratched by the seller with lord knows what abrasive block and then stomped upon by a cow who may have left a bit of calling card on it as well. Yet, reground to a slightly deeper hollow, shiny it shall be, it is going into acrylic with all the bells and whistles. It is not destined for the junk bin and may serve me and others for another 100+ years. I have another early silver steel, which, when lightly cleaned, it shines. No grind marks at all. Should I scratch and dull it?? I have some ancient blades which will not sharpen, should I rescale in period dress and hang on the wall to drive someone in the future nutty?? I have sufficient others which will get the attention, love, or trashing they deserve. Will some get matt finish, blueing, browning, or lord forfend; gold or silver? I don't yet know. For some in the future such may be a great idea. I am fully capable with all of them.
What I like best is:
Here
Merry Christmas to all!
Respectfully
~Richard

 

[Guest]

Incidentally, no-one ever said that a badly compromised, rusty, filthy, beaten, unloved, blade of impeccable manufacture does not deserve another chance, Richard. The question was how far a remake can deviate from the original before it becomes a caricature or worse.

Well, sometimes pictures say more than words. Here is an example that should make the difference between an original an a US "enhancement" of this original obvious...

Germany has a traditional carnival called Oktoberfest. It looks like this.

The US may not have much in terms of tradition, but they certainly love to bring a bit of Old Europe to their world. It typically results in something like this (or its razor scale equivalents).

I am not even saying that this is vulgar, tasteless, cheap or morally inferior - I'll leave that to your right wing so called politicians. All I am saying is that it has nothing to do with the original whatsoever except in very vague optical terms. You could say that the soul was ripped out of it, and I - as a Bavarian citizen - certainly will not disagree with that. I am, however, convinced that it is commercially far more successful.

So, dear restorers, polish away to your heart's content. Buff, shine, file, Dremel, and re-scale. May the God of Bowling Ball Debris be with you, and may our exclamation marks never turn into question marks, lest someone quote Pratchett.

Regards,
Robin

 

[Toff]

Hey moderators, lets move this to a new thread??
Hi Robin,
Trailer trash is not unknown here. "Bling" is excessive and some folks seem to be reincarnated to love the excessive/expensive styles. What of the fancy razors and scales considered fancy back in the day? Many folks went out and bought the new Celluloid scales as soon as they were available.
Here Are 100 year old "fancy rescales" unfaithful to the 1850 blade they went onto? Should they be ripped off and replaced with Gutta Percha or vulcanite or horn? Are two hundred year old silver scales with gemstones bad because they are flashy?? Every generation has its own idea of cool and attention grabbing.
Fancy parts that have no effect on performance have been around since man used sinew to tye pretty feathers and bone beads onto his stone axe. If I make a set of worked sterling silver scales for a sesquicentennial razor is that ok and if I use acrylic that is wrong?

I get frustrated when someone says, as would a politician, that such a fashion is the only way to fly. On another small forum, a newby showed up and proceeded to rip a customizer of razors and then disappeared. When someone says, "I like/do not like, that item" I can honor their point of view without having to be "Wrong." Such phraseology gives me the space to change as I learn more.I get incensed when it is inferred, by a person speaking in the third person, that "any other viewpoint is wrong .

Finally, Since I live in a German/Swedish/Norwegian area, I am familiar with the Dirndl and that is the uniform dress of the ladies during our Oktoberfests here. The only enhancements are those of the ladies.
Most respectfully
~Richard

 

[Guest]

Well, let's start with the simple part first:

When someone says, "I like/do not like, that item" I can honor their point of view without having to be "Wrong." Such phraseology gives me the space to change as I learn more.I get incensed when it is inferred, by a person speaking in the third person, that "any other viewpoint is wrong .

And quite understandably, too. Thankfully, this site is mostly free from such rhetoric nonsense.

(...)I am familiar with the Dirndl and that is the uniform dress of the ladies during our Oktoberfests here. The only enhancements are those of the ladies.

Just for the record, Dirndl are part of Tracht. Like most other European regional dresses, they sometimes change from one village to the next. By taking them out of their geographic context, you deprive them of their original meaning, and they become a fashion item. It can be done, and there is nothing wrong with that legally. But the natives will consider it bad taste. Speaking of which, let's get back on track, shall we?

Are 100 year old "fancy rescales" unfaithful to the 1850 blade they went onto? Should they be ripped off and replaced with Gutta Percha or vulcanite or horn? Are two hundred year old silver scales with gemstones bad because they are flashy??

Are these rhetorical questions? I presume they are. In which case, I would like to remind you that we were talking about protecting original marks on a razor, and why buffing up historic razors to a mirror finish turns them into something ahistorical. Like any other modification that significantly changes the style of a razor.

I think the misunderstanding here is that you think I consider any of these modifications wrong. I do not. If they make the owner happy, that is absolutely fine by me. The problem starts when the owners or, worse, custom scale mongers, show up in public, and firmly demand a pat on the back, or their rightful place in one of the circle jerks called "show and tell" or "resto & costume" forums.

Every generation has its own idea of cool and attention grabbing.

Absolutely, and they usually do not mix. At all.

Regards,
Robin

 

[Paul]

I'd be interested in Robin's thoughts on Sam Adams' Oktoberfest enhancement ...

 

[danjared]

Robin: Right, we all know how you feel about certain razor "restorations". We get it. We also know how you loathe America. Yes, we know, Germany is the height of culture (as they tried to "teach" Europe twice last century). And we know how America is ruining your "cultural legacy". Get over it. This is past sounding like a broken record. Please find something to say besides cheap shots at America and anything not German. There are the occasional amusing comments, but mostly I'm finding them increasingly tasteless.

By the way, concerning how "the US may not have much in terms of tradition": If you get off your Europe-centric throne (which ignores that anywhere in the world--including Africa and the Americas--had civilization before Europeans graced us with your ways), you'll realize how petty this sounds.

 

[Paul]

Robin: Right, we all know how you feel about certain razor "restorations". We get it. We also know how you loathe America. Yes, we know, Germany is the height of culture (as they tried to "teach" Europe twice last century). And we know how America is ruining your "cultural legacy". Get over it. This is past sounding like a broken record. Please find something to say besides cheap shots at America and anything not German. There are the occasional amusing comments, but mostly I'm finding them increasingly tasteless.

By the way, concerning how "the US may not have much in terms of tradition": If you get off your Europe-centric throne (which ignores that anywhere in the world--including Africa and the Americas--had civilization before Europeans graced us with your ways), you'll realize how petty this sounds.

I had to sleep on this one.

I can recall reading Robin's opinions of customizations called "restorations", but I do not recall reading anywhere of his loathing America.

I've seen due praise given to talented guys who actually restore razors to a conditions that resemble their original state, and I've seen distaste shown for the work of some guys who don't share his traditionalist view. And, yes, the latter is repeated with a little too much regularity, I suppose, but you can't overlook the former.

I'll also say that I find it ironic that the only stone he uses is of Belgian origin when one of the most hyped and touted stones in our scene is German, and here he's accused of taking cheap shots at anything "not German"...

Regarding the comments pertaining to the WWs: very few countries are free from embarrassing moments, and the US isn't one of them. Bringing that up is not only counterproductive, but it's disrespectful on many levels.

Considering Robin has lived in 2 different US cities (one in Ohio which may explain his loathing if in fact he does : ) as well as several other countries both in and outside of the EU, he's hardly speaking from a lack of experience with our culture or from a Euro-Centric Throne. Furthermore, he's right to an extent. We don't have a lot of collectively traditional things for several very good reasons. First, we are a young country Oktoberfest itself is almost as old as the US. Second, we are a "melting pot" of many cultures with a resulting eclectic mix of people and traditions without as much sense of unity as other countries have. Also, the sheer size of our nation results in a much more sparsely populated landmass with pockets of communities. There are a lot of festivals and events that are huge in certain regions that none of us in the rest of the country have even heard of.

Being a descendent of indigenous people of the America's, I find the notion that a lot of tradition remains from my people unfortunately, but wholly, inaccurate. In fact, this goes to my previous point. I was asked my ethnicity by someone at a dinner party earlier this month, and the breakdown is comical. The Cherokee has almost been completely bred out of me (all except the high cheekbones and dark complexion). This results in most people thinking I'm Puerto Rican lol... Funny sidebar: when I was playing professional baseball, new latin players would approach me and start speaking Spanish to me, and I would have to sheepishly admit that I only know English despite having taken Spanish in high school (I remedied that by taking Chinese at University but have lost almost all of it due to lack of use).

Sorry for going off topic, but I felt like someone needed to respond to this, even if Robin decides not to

 

[The*Cincinnati*Kid]

Considering Robin has lived in 2 different US cities (one in Ohio which may explain his loathing if in fact he does : )

Whats wrong with Ohio? Could it be the murders, & robberies, & rioting oh my.: I was born and have lived in Cincinnati Ohio all my life and I'm proud to call it home! We love Oktoberfest here.


Louis.

 

[Bart]

A picture paints a thousand words:
[img=700]http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/attachments/vendors-corner/40356d1270104906-gemstar-customs-7-8-henckels-friodur-aquamarine-hf-2.jpg[/img]

And another one:
[img=700]http://www.madaspenhome.com/straightrazors/products/sotd/lg/sotd128.jpg[/img]

Both are Friodur razors. Neither an historically correct restoration. But I'm sure that not every person will equally like both incarnations of a straight razor. I wouldn't mind owning the latter, but you'd have to give me money on top for accepting the former, and then I'd probably use it with the scales covered by a brown paper bag, and wearing sun glasses, just in case...

But that is a matter of taste. Even insisting that a razor his historically pure is a matter of taste, because such a razor doesn't shave better.

I am a graphical professional, dealing with "taste" on a daily basis. My company works for more than one ethnic group. I can testify that "taste" is primarily of cultural descent and only secondary based on individual factors.

That's why taste is impossible to discuss, but people should be able to share their appreciation or depreciation for a certain style. Such conversation is not going to convince anyone to change his taste, but no one ever said that conversation equals discussion.
The forum rules state:

If you feel the need to debate, make sure to stay on topic: no name calling or character assaults will be allowed.

Should anyone wonder "is he addressing me with that quote"? The answer is: "Yes, you!"

So far the heart of the matter.
Now, one little of topic issue:

Germany is the height of culture (as they tried to "teach" Europe twice last century).

That's not quite how it went. Germany was more or less dragged into WW-I. (by an annoying treaty with Austria-Hungary).
That war was eventually lost by Germany, which led to the Treaty of Versailles. This treaty was one of the biggest mistakes of history. Germany had to accept the guilt for the war and was sentenced to pay enormous war reparations. This prepared the German social soil for the development of Nazism. The rise of the Sovjet state in the East was another factor that polarized the minds in Germany (and elsewhere). In a way, an old world came to an end in 1914 and a new stable world order had not been found. WWII was - in that sense - a continuation of the same struggle.
None of that pardons the atrocities of the Nazi regime, but to believe that such atrocities were indigenous to the German identity, is a dangerous notion.
There are plenty examples in far more recent history to illustrate that this behavior is far from exclusively German.
I will refrain from summing any.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[DJKELLY]

I am afraid to ask for a translation of that "bavarian citizen" hyper text. Please tell me that most of us understand the uniqueness of individual countries, including each of those in Europe. In the US most of us are proud of our particular states but we will band together pretty darn quickly when any one is maligned or perceived to be. I am not sure that is what is going on here, but I also hope we don't get too far down the road of politics. I don't give a fuck what you believe as long as you don't try to force it on me, too. If we all felt the same there would be no jokes left to tell. Denny
p.s. Do you have the number of that real Bavarian blond? I might be her father.

 

[Paul]

Considering Robin has lived in 2 different US cities (one in Ohio which may explain his loathing if in fact he does : )

Whats wrong with Ohio? Could it be the murders, & robberies, & rioting oh my.: I was born and have lived in Cincinnati Ohio all my life and I'm proud to call it home! We love Oktoberfest here.


Louis.

That's the one

I was only joking about Ohio. I loved my very limited time there in Cincinnati and Mahoning Valley. It really is a nice place

 

[Smythe]

Just a few comments… hope I don’t offend anyone…
I a strong believer in “Verity is the spice of life” and every internet needs at least one site run by semi trained monkeys. Now, though I could attribute the same to the variety of scales now being produced by the acrylics, I however (in my humble opinion), draw the line at scales that do not match the period of manufacture. Give me wood, horn or (dare I say) plastic imitation of the original, because surely, a very old wedge ground Sheffield would appear rather “odd” if found in “bolstered celluloid” scales… let alone (pedophilic) candy-cane colored acrylic.

As for those folks who recently invested in buffers and stuff…
Well, too bad… it should be obvious they got into vintage razor restoration mostly for the financial rewards, as such it is a businesses. commercial enterprises fail every day for any number of reasons; economic environment… or lack of business attitude on the part of the proprietor… or (in this case) bad decisions resulting from poor research… so let the chips fall where they may.

And finally, one thing Americans learned from the second world war… have a look at most any form of American adverts, be it cars, cream or lager… it would appear Blond Hair and Blue Eyes are superior to all others.

 

[The*Cincinnati*Kid]

I don't give a fuck what you believe as long as you don't try to force it on me, too.

or my kinfolk, no joke.:sneaky:

If we all felt the same there would be no jokes left to tell. Denny

Can you smell it?
Louis.

 

[Toff]

And finally, one thing Americans learned from the second world war… have a look at most any form of American adverts, be it cars, cream or lager… it would appear Blond Hair and Blue Eyes are superior to all others

I must have a TV that is set to negative during advertisements, at least half of it anyway!:cry:
Cheers
~Richard