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coticule/10k naniwa

G

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
I also tryed coti dilucot. followed by 10 to 20 laps on 10k naniwa. now i could follow up with coticule or escher. I no barts done this with is 10k corsa followed by coti.

All i can say is of the naniwa 10k the hht does improve drasticly, with just a thew laps. after stropping hairs on my arm get sliced big time. its as if i have used my ti paste. The same result i can get with naniwa. i had a quik sahve and the sahve was very good. i did two razors like this but one was finished on escher and it was also very good and very smooth. That was on y john clarkes which tbo is a very good razor.

All in all i would recomend the naniwa 10k after coticule and then finish on coti. as it is great for keeness you can struggle to get from your coticule.

it may take 10 to 50 laps on the 10k if your along way of keeness with your coticule hone.

I did 10 laps on my ti le grelot and it worked for me . these arn't easy razors to reach fullkeeness. i've found that out a thew times. mt little 21 seems to work better on my silverwing giving me an amazing edge and so smooth. i did'nt need any paste after i'd honed on the 21 coticule.
 
Nice one Gary mate, problem for me is I wouldnt know naniwa if it dropped on my foot...lol
its Jnat yeah? do you use slurry? also if your finishing on the coti, is the Narnia (hahaha)used to get that extra bit of keenness?
 
ralfy it is 10k superstone naniwa. invisable edge stocks them. It is manmade and i'm sure they are japaneese.they don't need soaking. you just sprinkle water on them. i've just honed on milky slurry (coticule). tried hht not sucesful. I did 10 laps on 10k with water, i've heard you can use a slurry and they do create a slurry.Any way hht nearly there. I did 25 laps and i waas pissing hht then you can shave of 10k or you can go to your nu 10 to finish after stropping the hht was the same as i'd get from ti paste. I've shaved breifly of 10 k and it was smooth . It's in the sharpening acadmey. Bart explains it is a progression and a simple way of adding keeness. Just like using balsa hone with cro.ox.

The naniwa super stones are realy nice and give feed back just like the coticule in away, the feed back is letting you no the razor is sharp. Disburden uses 12k i'm sure he will agree they are fast cutting polishers with good feed back. They also feel soft and not grainy like other manmade hones.

martin raspur says 10k is more than enough, it is said the grit rating is low and they are finer than said. Some one rated 12k at 16k and 5k at 8k.
 
Wow sounds like a very very useful bit of kit mate:thumbup: and certainly an option to quickly squeeze that extra bit from the edge without having to try at different things on the coticule, do you find you still need it when you do the new dilocut? and do you think its better than using balsa or TI strop?
 
Gary and Ralfy,
I have tried to stay out of the threads relating to the finding and purchasing of Thurington's and Eschers. I have both and use neither one. I have found as a general rule that those who convince themselves that they need them just haven't really figured out how to use the stones they already have. Doesn't matter wheather they are synthetic or natural.

It is hard to convince someone when they have a problem trying to produce a keen edge and can't, the issue was actually in the development of the bevel. Yea, I know, sounds crazy but that bevel really has two parts to it and the second one always seems to be overlooked. That edge not only has to look good, but it has to be extremely sharp too. If it isn't sharp completely down the length of the whole edge then don't move on, lack of keeping track of this from this point on will show up at the finishing stage by not being able to produce any keeness at all. It has nothing to do with the stone and everything to do with your own quality control system. Miss passing a test along the way and you fail at the end, that's it end of story.

Quite rushing out to buy another stone to solve yet another problem that you really need to just work yourself through first.

Sorry for the ranting but I just had to get it out.

Ray
 
Ray i like trying other stones. I try them not to solve any problems . There are many ways to do things, and lots of combinations. i no you have tryed the naniwas and diamond paste etc. Then you find what you actualy prefer. Some might like shaptons some may not. Some may not not like diamond spray as they find it is to harsh. It's just experimenting with differant hones.

I've always wanted a escher now i've got one. I may never use it in the future.

I no ral;fy and i get the end result with coticules and it can be done. It takes alot of practice for some of the lads as they are struggling. They could use somthing else to make it easier untill they master there coticule.

I always shave of my coticules they have to be shave ready before i even try some add on. To be onest i have tryed the escher after its still early days. To be onest i've not noticed 316 dollars worth of differance. It felt differant but not better infact it felt a little less smooth on my dovo. My john clarkes felt fine and legrelot felt just fine.

I honed on a sluirry with my coticule. This was just an experiment. I went staright to the naniwa 10k and i did 20 to 30 passes i was passing hht of the hone and aftyer stropping passing just as nice as a full dilucot session. This would be much easier for some who is struggling. It's like using one of your balsa hones at the very end, then adding coticule it also works. I read that in one of your post as you recomended it. That all i'm doing
 
tat2Ralfy said:
Wow sounds like a very very useful bit of kit mate:thumbup: and certainly an option to quickly squeeze that extra bit from the edge without having to try at different things on the coticule, do you find you still need it when you do the new dilocut? and do you think its better than using balsa or TI strop?
Click to expand...

exactly i tryed every trick in the book with my legrelot. I did'nt want to put a unicot edge on it. I did improve it. I took that to the 10k with 10 laps. Anmd it [pops hairs just like it did when raspur sent it to me. I'm talking hht. I'm sure it would of shaved all the same.

I never realy took to the balsa hone. Thers no dout TI paste gives a much smoother and sharper edge than the cro.ox balsa .Even on a shave ready razor the ti paste leaves a nice edge defanaatley gives more a 5 hht to apose 4 on the coticule. I'm judging the hht results.

And i have to admit i get a bit nicer sahve of ti paste.A shave that my face just prefers. The only coticule i have that gives the same finish is my la grosse jaun. I no that the one i'm going to use as my go to coticule. I'm just honing the same razor on all four coti to compare. Infact i will hone on my la grosse jaune next just to see the differance.

new dilucot method i use it but i also mix it with some normal strokes and finish with some extra water strokes if needed. Also i have been working on my new hone. I have to learn to under satnd this one. I just finding at the end if i let the hone rest. Then applt water again i get better results. Why this is to me is the surface stays grabby with water for a while. If i rest then start again, the surface is totaly garnet free.
 
Gary and Ralfy,

The reason I wrote my little wranting here, was certainly not to point it at either one of you. I have watched both of you for some time now, strugle and mature at your honing skill and you two can relate best to what I am talking about.

You both understand the importance of doing a U-turn and going back if needed. Gary, you have pushed your stones to their limits as I have and moved on to others, that seems to be a normal progression. Ralfy(Dr), you are not afraid to experiment, something I use to do a lot of, not as much any more. You both are going to be great honemeisters.

So if either of you took this personally, my sincerest apologies, it was not meant to be directed in that manner.

Ray
 
No ofence taken ray .i understand what your saying. I read lot of post. And it seems lots of guys think oh i will get a 20k and my razor will be better . They find there is no improve mant. Same with coticules when i first got one may be 2 nearly 3 years ago. I tryed mine i thought it was use less. I went back to it 6 months later and learn't alot from it, and found out where i was going wrong. I never looked back since. I could not of acheived this with out barts help through srp and now coticule.be.. I could easily get by with coticule and ti paste thats it for me. I sold my nortons. I learn't on nortons.

i wanted an escher for so long as it is natural stone. I do like the 10k naniwa. I actualy have had the whole set of 1k 3k 5k 8k 12k naniwas and ssold them. The reason being i was just using my coticule. I did'nt need them. It was a pain in the arse having to clean all those hones getting them out , having to let them dry out etc. Not noing which one to drop back to if i was'nt hitting the hht. I just won't sahve unless i am passing hht thats me some will disagree.

Now i have just 10k i no that can fit in if i need it. I would'nt buy the whole set again as my coticule will work just fine.
 
rayman said:
I have found as a general rule that those who convince themselves that they need them just haven't really figured out how to use the stones they already have. Doesn't matter wheather they are synthetic or natural.

It is hard to convince someone when they have a problem trying to produce a keen edge and can't, the issue was actually in the development of the bevel. Yea, I know, sounds crazy but that bevel really has two parts to it and the second one always seems to be overlooked. That edge not only has to look good, but it has to be extremely sharp too. If it isn't sharp completely down the length of the whole edge then don't move on, lack of keeping track of this from this point on will show up at the finishing stage by not being able to produce any keeness at all. It has nothing to do with the stone and everything to do with your own quality control system. Miss passing a test along the way and you fail at the end, that's it end of story.

Quite rushing out to buy another stone to solve yet another problem that you really need to just work yourself through first.

Sorry for the ranting but I just had to get it out.

Ray
Click to expand...

Rant? I dont see a rant Ray? what I see is sound advice and spot on knowledge from a trusted friend, I couldnt agree more with you, and never had any intentions of buying another type of hone, I know as well that Gary has his variety of stones because he likes to experiment, its a fun way to learn isn't it :thumbup:
So no need for apologies Sir Ray, and indeed I thank you from anyone who is reading this thread and wondering why they just cant seem to get that final finish as sharp as they would like, without the proper foundation you will absolutely fail.

Best Regards Ray
Your friend
Ralfy
 
Thanks for the reply gents. I was just sitting here for the last 20 min. honing a Dovo someone sent me, nice warp and dull as hell. put one piece of tape on the spine and set the bevel on my 1200 DMT.

Seemed to be ok, all except for the very tip of the heel. So I went back to the DMT and kept a close eye on the wave. There was the whole story, the wave gave it away, that edge felt sharp but it wasn't ready yet and the heel let me know it. I kept at it until that wave was the same on both sides and the sharpness was the same down the whole edge. Both you guys know what I am talking about.

Now I move to good ol' No2. I put the moves on it (Bart's new method) and this baby really starts to take an edge, and like the late night ads say, but waite - there's more! Now I move to a Coticule that Bart found for me and I had cut to 25mm x 170mm just for warped edges and just for finishing. It is hard as hell and a superb finisher. I do the new method again on this stone and when I am finished, I grab one of my very fine gray hairs to do a HHT.

Once a year no matter what, Skeeter our cat, gets a bath. If you can imagine what that cat looks like trying to climb up over my shoulders and around my neck, well that's exactly what that blade of hair looked like when it saw the edge on that Dove as it started coming close to it. It was wonderfully sharp and I am sure it will be pleasently smooth when I test shave with it later.

Thanks, my friends,

Ray
 
rayman said:
Quit rushing out to buy another stone to solve yet another problem that you really need to just work yourself through first.

Ray
Click to expand...

This is definately sound advice. I know I have been guilty of buying hones I didn't need, and now don't want.
It seems to happen to a lot of new honers. The general dogma of the other forums (Where he who dies with the most hones, razors etc. wins)doesn't help either.
I think a lot of it has to do with the type of person attracted to straight shaving. ie. The perfectionist.
I always want to use the best tools I can afford for any given job. It's just nicer to use good tools, whether its a hammer, a plane, por a hone. In some instances, better tools offer better results but, as with most things in life a good workman with poor tools will always get better results than a rookie with top notch gear. That's trying to get better results by using better tools. A pointless exercice until you have mastered your current tools (Assuming they are suitable for the task at hand).
The other aspect is the one which affected me to a greater degree. I wanted to try to hone my own razors, and discovered early on that I enjoyed the act of honing itself. It became as much about the journey as the destination. I wanted new hones in order to make honing a more enjoyable experience more than I wanted to improve my results.
I started with the same tools as most. A DMT 325 and 1200 and a Norton 4/8k. I used the 325 for lapping only. I have never liked the feel of the DMT or the Norton 4k although my results have been satisfactory. The 8k is a nice hone. So even without using anything else, I knew there must be something out there that I would like more than the tools I had.
Enter the Coticule! After some practise I got better results than I had with the Norton and it felt wonderful. I love honing on slurry. It feels great, and offers great feedback on the condition of the edge. I still want a low grit hone to use before the Coticule on damaged edges, and I think I will try the Naniwas for that.

That turned into a bit of an essay there. Sorry about that, but I thought another perspective on Rays advice might be useful to someone.
 
well i just shaved with my dovo honed on my hybrid side. First i shaved of the other razor with echer edge. To be onest the coticule edge was smoother and the escher edge was all good. If i was to of done a blind test the coticule honed razor would of won hands down.
 
What a wonderful thread! I absolutely adore reading these little personal honing journeys. Ray's concern are genuine. There's so much gear fetishism on the Internet that it can get on my nerves too. It's certainly not confined to razors and whetstones. I've a 20 year history of hiking in the Belgian Ardennes, and each year I'm more amazed by the equipment of other travelers that occasionally cross our path. These guys look like they're ready to to North Pole. And when we go grab a beer in a local pub, we see those same guys and hear them linger on endlessly about their gear.
Obviously, for an outsider, we're also lingering on endlessly on this website, but I still like to think that we're not falling into the gear fetishism trap. Because Connor is absolutely correct, in my opinion. It's not the chisel that carves the sculpture but the hands and the mind of he who holds the chisel. Obviously he may use a few different chisels to do the job, and he may like to discuss with other artisans the techniques he uses to carve.

I know Gary was just doing that when he started this thread. And I know Ray was just genuinely concerned that aspiring honers may read it as advice to go out and buy more hones.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
very true. that how i ended up with all these hones and paste. reselling and rebuying. luckily i can put these down as an expense through my barbers shop:thumbup:
 
I think most of the big internet sites are to blame for this. When a new person starts to hone and looks for advise the find thread about eschers, shaptons, and of course the confusing Jnats. When I started honing, I had a coticule, a 750 diamond hone, a hard arkansas, and a Swaty. Did I learn to use these hones to their full potential? Nope, I sold some, used some, and put some in the closet.

I know have around 20-30 hones, coticule, arkansas, queer creek, 1k,4k,8k norton, DMT750, DMT325, a variety of barber hones, an old thuringian, MST thuringian, mystery thuringian, C12k, the list goes on and on.

If I could go back and do it all again, what would I buy? The norton set and a coticule. Why? Because, there is so much info on those Nortons, one can't go wrong. I think I am doing what Gary did - unlearning bad habits with the Nortons (which were his), but supplementing in the Coticule whenever I can. If my dilocot sucks, just hit the nortons and then coticule to finish. Eventually, I will probably get rid of the Nortons, minus the 1k, it's very handy. If I had to get one more (I will...) I would get either the 10k chocera, or the 12k naniwa super. Why? Because they are fast and consistent from what I understand. With no deviation in performance like coticules.

I am not bashing coticules by any means. I long for the day when I can master my coticule and call it my own. I don't think people realize how much trial and error is involved with using a coticule. Sure you can get on SRP or here and read about them like you can the nortons, but you won't have the same results as quick as you could with a Norton or similar stone.

Ray is right, I can understand his rant, but it is something that happens everywhere. A co-worker at the factory I work at messed up 5 identical parts and had them re-welded 4 times before he finished them right. What does he come in with the next week? A new 0-6 inch set of starret micrometers. These retail for around a grand. What do I use? cheap old chinese knock offs, and one starret. They won't last forever, or stay in tolerance as long, but they work IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM. It is easy to blame the tools when one makes mistakes in their work.

I'm guilty of blaming my hones and not my technique in many cases; I won't deny that:blush: However, i'm limiting myself to the nortons, coticule, and vintage thurry for now and leaving everything else aside. Hopefully this will help me in the long run!

Sorry for the long post, I kind of got carried away.
Mrmaroon
 
update on coti/10k naniwa

i have been trying out naniwa after coti . this is what i have found and it pritty amazing.

i have honed the dovo best on my hybrid coticule. the shave was ultra smooth and absalutly perfect.

So i thought i would add 10 laps on 10k naniwa and see what happens. then test sahve and add another 7 and test sahve and so on .

Any way i got carryed away and did 15 extra laps. the hht test was just as good except from more distance from the edge i was poping hair. the shave was just as smooth and just as good it was hard to say but could of felt sharper.due to differant hone not natural.

any way i did a futher 7 laps in total 22. i stropped the razor in usaul manner. the hht no worse still poping from a distance and with no pressure , just lying the finest of hair across the edge, it just broke in half. absalutly unreal.

the shave was the same as shaving with a shavette and a perma sharp blade that i use at work on my customer's.I glided the edge across hand hair and the razor was poping hair just like a de blade would, i could'nt beleive it. this proves straights can be as sharp as a de blade.

now the shave was slightly harsher not much but i noticed the differance. I had to use zero pressure to make the shave feel smoother. Just like i would with de blade in my shavette.

ATG i had to seriously use no pressure what so ever. The sahve was the closest i ever had with two passes.

the down side was its the first time ever i have had a thew blood spot apear and my neck was actualy a little pink and blotchy and i had a slight razor burn. Bay rum stung like hell.

This is a new one on me. its the first time i have experianced a blade that is too sharp for its own good.


I should imagine a coticule should calm things down a little .

What would you say bart?

all in all i did 'nt think a straight could be that sharp, it just proved to me they can be. I would put this edge on par with a de blade. My neck is still tingling now with zero pressure
 
Gary,

those results are completely on par with what I get on my Naniwa Chosera 10K. Great performance, slices through whiskers and skin papillae with equal ease. I couldn't shave without bloody speckles and a slight rash on my neck that lasted about a hour. After 3 shaves in 6 days, my skin became fuzzy like a worn-out jeans.
I discovered that I could finish these edges with a Coticule. The shaves were just as effortlessly, but without the downsides. That was before I learned how to achieve the same without using the Chosera. It was also at that point that I started to realize, that for me, my ongoing quest for the better edge had arrived at an endpoint.
Yes, I am convinced that a razor's edge can be too sharp to be comfortable. Try lapping film all the way up to 0.1 micron. It creates an edge you can hardly put down on your skin without cutting yourself.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
I reckon 10 laps on 10k would of been better. but it sure works if you hav'nt hit max on coti. i test at each hone to compare.That way i no waht hone does what to my razor. One thiong for sure you would'nt need paste with this 10k.
 
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