Coticule collection

[yohannrjm]

Much as I hate to say this; I have a bit of a coticule collection. :

Not as many as some of you guys, but a lot more than I need. If I had one 1.5" x 8" coticule with a thick coticule layer, I probably would be happy (Yeah, Right!)

The two above are the first two cotis I got. The bottom one is my largest, and hardest coticule - unknown vein. It is 8" x 2.5" and has a marbled surface. It is also really hard to get a slurry from this stone. That's why it's been scrawled on with a marker (to see if the slurry is coming from the slurry stone only, or from the surface of the hone itself). Initial results say that there's a very minimal contribution from the hone to the slurry.

It took a while before I was able to get a decent edge off this hone. It is like marble and it's very smooth. Since I took some time off honing, I have returned to this hone and have not been able to get anything positive off it. It's probably my fault, but it is a bit frustrating. Perhaps there are some of you out there who may have some tips on using this.

The top one is the oldest one I have and it is a natural coti/BBW combo with a very thin coti layer (about 1mm in some places). I love the edge I get from this stone, though I have no idea what the vein is. It is fast and smooth. It is also the stone that's closest to the ideal size for me.

The BBW side on this stone is also excellent for honing. I think it may actually be very fine, but I can't say how fine. The visual texture on the BBW is different from any other BBW I've had. I usually get BBW with specks in it, but this one is darker (like a merlot colour), and has waves in the texture (visually only). Here's a pic of the BBW side:

The bottom hone in that pic is a La Petite Blanche natural combo that's pretty small (about 5" long). Still, it is an excellent hone. Very fast, and the edge it produces is excellent. If I could get my hands on a substantial coti from this layer that's 7-8" long, I'd be very happy.

It has nice draw, and the slurry characteristics are great. I love using this one for touch-ups.

It has a 'typical' BBW layer with specks. I've not characterized how the BBW layer works, though I'll usually use it for a few laps in my honing progression.

Here's a pic of the side view of the stone (on the bottom):

The top stone in the above pic is a Les Latneuses that I recently picked up from Ardennes. This is a view of the 'hybrid' side.

This hybrid side is very, very hard. It seems to have less of a coticule component than some of the Les Latneuses I've seen in the vault. It is impossible to raise any visual slurry from this side (even using a slurry stone with a hybrid side). It feels like I'm trying to raise a slurry off polished marble. I haven't been able to get anything going with this side of the hone.

Do any of you have any pointers on this?

The 'business end' of this coticule is the yellow side. This is a very fast, velvety side to use. It cuts fine and quickly, and it feels great to use. It is somewhat like the thin coticule in the first pic (by feel...nothing else). It is a 6" x 2" stone, and I really like it. I haven't used it often enough to build a profile of its capabilities, but I'm working on it.

The last two coticules I have are the two in the pic above. I only recently picked them up and have used them on a few razors. They're both natural combos from different layers (unknown which), and are newly mined.

The top one was bought by me as a curiosity because the vendor (who tried them out) insisted that it is the fastest coticule he's ever had. It has a thinnish coticule layer that feels great to hone on. I haven't noticed that it's super-duper quick, though it certainly isn't slow. I was a little vary of how fine it could be (given its claimed speed), but it does appear to be pretty fine. More tests will be necessary to decide how it works as a finisher.

The bottom one is a nice long bout. Pretty thick coticule layer, and it hones very well. I recently honed a Wilkinson on this one, and I was very pleeased with the edge. I like the narrow end.

[c]---------------------[/c]

ONE NOTE: In a previous post here: http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1249.html, I noted how my recent results have left a bit to be desired. This has clouded my experiences with the last three coticules listed here. I've been going through a 'down' period, and I only recently managed to get a good edge again (off the triangular bout). Hopefully things will improve.

Suggestions of how to get my act in order are always welcome.

 

[Paul]

Whoa. That's a collection alright.

When I struggle, it's almost always when learning a new stone or when switching too much back and forth between them. You may consider boxing some of those up and using one until you get your groove back

 

[RicTic]

The top stone in the above pic is a Les Latneuses that I recently picked up from Ardennes. This is a view of the 'hybrid' side.

This hybrid side is very, very hard. It seems to have less of a coticule component than some of the Les Latneuses I've seen in the vault. It is impossible to raise any visual slurry from this side (even using a slurry stone with a hybrid side). It feels like I'm trying to raise a slurry off polished marble. I haven't been able to get anything going with this side of the hone.

Do any of you have any pointers on this?

Sounds like a typical Les Latneuses. I've experienced exactly the same with mine.
You can always do what I do and use the creamy side, then turn over and finish on the hybrid.
I find the Hybrid side gives a smoother shave.

Or,

Keep your eye on this thread, where I asked a similar question http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1251.html and read Gary's observations.

 

[yohannrjm]

Whoa. That's a collection alright.

When I struggle, it's almost always when learning a new stone or when switching too much back and forth between them. You may consider boxing some of those up and using one until you get your groove back

Good point! I've actually wound up buying all these in an effort to match my oldest coticule (in the first pic). That one's almost used up (and will be once I've lapped it - which it needs). I haven't yet matched it, though the Les Latneuses seems to be close. Once I've found another coticule with characteristics I like, in a size I like, I'll sell off most of these.

At the moment I'm focused on the triangular bout, because it's long and narrow at one end anyway.

Sounds like a typical Les Latneuses. I've experienced exactly the same with mine.
You can always do what I do and use the creamy side, then turn over and finish on the hybrid.
I find the Hybrid side gives a smoother shave.

Or,

Keep your eye on this thread, where I asked a similar question http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1251.html and read Gary's observations.

Thanks for the link to the post. I'll look that one up.

Are you finishing on the hybrid side without any slurry, or are you building a slurry somehow? I'm assuming you're just using water.

 

[garyhaywood]

always finish with water. you can rub a slurry stone on hybrid side you will create slurry of your slurry stone , on to hybrid . You are working on a differant surface and it will work well try it and see, what happens.

 

[RicTic]

Are you finishing on the hybrid side without any slurry, or are you building a slurry somehow? I'm assuming you're just using water.

What Gary just said.
I've done both. A finish with just water, or if the edge needed a little more I gave it a couple of rubs with the (creamy side) slurry stone, then slowly down to just water.
That hybrid side really does give a smoother finish.

 

[Paul]

Good point! I've actually wound up buying all these in an effort to match my oldest coticule (in the first pic). That one's almost used up (and will be once I've lapped it - which it needs). I haven't yet matched it, though the Les Latneuses seems to be close. Once I've found another coticule with characteristics I like, in a size I like, I'll sell off most of these.

At the moment I'm focused on the triangular bout, because it's long and narrow at one end anyway.

Take your pick of which one is the most visually appealing and the size you want then because you're going to be able to get great results out of any of these that you've shown pictures of. Work on that one, and you'll be just fine. :thumbup:

 

[garyhaywood]

i've just tryed creating a slurry on hybrid side with the slate side of my slurry stone. it was ny on impossible to raize a good slurry , the best i got was white coloured water. the hybrid side is bloody hard. its only untill now i realized i have been honing with slurry of my slurry stone on hybrid side.well mainly. so basicly i'm crerating slurry of rubbing stone on to hybrid side. still learning. even still the results have been exallant.

has for finishing yes i totaly agree with ric that hybrid side is defanatley more mellow than the yellow side which is more on the brisk side which i don't like as much . i'm more engaing to mellow edge .thats my favorite . so all the time i thought my slurry was from hybrid it was actualy of more or less my slurry stone.

having said that the speed of cutting with slurry as always been the same. with any of the 5 slurry stones i use.

gary

 

[Bart]

You can get a thick slurry on every Coticule in your collection. But on both hard specimen (that green hybrid one and the hybrid side of you Les Latneuses), it takes an extra effort:
tilt the slurry stone a bit and rely on pressure to get the slurry going. Don't add water too soon; when it becomes paste-like, it 'll start abrading the stone at a faster rate. You can always add water to adjust consistency before you start honing.
In this video, you see me raising slurry on a stone that was cut from the same Coticule chuck as yours. You can see that I was really leaning on the slurry stone. But I do get thick slurry with no problems. Thicker that you'd ever need. There are 4 people on the planet, owning a chuck of that stone: you, Torben, Gary, and I. I claim that it's every bit as sweet as the mellowest hybrid. You only need to give it a chance to prove it. The slurry stone doesn't matter.

I agree with Paul. It's best to confine yourself to only one hone, if you have trouble getting perfect results. It doesn't really matter which one, they'll all work.

I have a slight hunch that the first picture could show us a La Grosse Blanche. But I'd need more and better pictures to confirm it.

Kind regards,

Bart.

 

[garyhaywood]

so basicly, my slurry stone will abraid the hybrid surface, due to garnets being release on to surface? causing a better cutting action.

gary

 

[Smythe]

Nice collection....
I also have a Les Latneuses and find it difficult to raise slurry on the hybrid.

I see factory striations on the surface, you may want to lap the stone a bit so you get a smoother surface. This is so you get more of the surface in contact with the steel as you sharpen the blade. Yes, the stone is very hard, so it may take a good part of the afternoon, but once done you may never have to do it again for another generation.

You could try 2k grit wet dry sandpaper, just a small strip used with your finger or glued to the flat side of a block of wood or plastic is all that’s needed (though you will have to replace the paper when it becomes worn), don’t worry about the abrasive in the paper getting into the slurry, in-fact, some will get into the slurry, but they will be as fine (or finer) than the Coticule particles and probably less than 1% anyway.

 

[yohannrjm]

Bart:

I have been able to raise a thick slurry using the technique you mentioned (the edge of a slurry stone). However, like Gary, I'm convinced that most of the slurry is form the slurry stone itself and not the hone.

That's why I used the marker on the hone - to see if the marks get abraded off (with the hone releasing slurry). I've only used the hone twice since I started this experiment, but it seems like most of the slurry is coming from the slurry stone.

This doesn't affect the ability to hone on this stone, of course. I remember you mentioning an experiment where you transferred coticule slurry to a glass surface and honed on that. Perhaps we're doing the same thing here (and on the hybrid side of a Les Latneuses). I know this hone can cut by itself, as I've used the reverse (rough) side for knives, and I see an autoslurry effect and darkening of the slurry (but I'm using quite a bit of pressure on the knives). Still, with razors, perhaps most of the cutting action is coming from the slurry off the slurry stone.

I know I can get nice edges off this hone, so it's just a matter of finding the right technique (again).

Smythe:

Yes, the reverse hasn't been lapped by me. I lapped the yellow side when I got it, and I started to lap the hybrid side, but ran out of patience. I'll get around to doing that soon.

 

[garyhaywood]

Bart:

I have been able to raise a thick slurry using the technique you mentioned (the edge of a slurry stone). However, like Gary, I'm convinced that most of the slurry is form the slurry stone itself and not the hone.

That's why I used the marker on the hone - to see if the marks get abraded off (with the hone releasing slurry). I've only used the hone twice since I started this experiment, but it seems like most of the slurry is coming from the slurry stone.

This doesn't affect the ability to hone on this stone, of course. I remember you mentioning an experiment where you transferred coticule slurry to a glass surface and honed on that. Perhaps we're doing the same thing here (and on the hybrid side of a Les Latneuses). I know this hone can cut by itself, as I've used the reverse (rough) side for knives, and I see an autoslurry effect and darkening of the slurry (but I'm using quite a bit of pressure on the knives). Still, with razors, perhaps most of the cutting action is coming from the slurry off the slurry stone.

I know I can get nice edges off this hone, so it's just a matter of finding the right technique (again).

Smythe:

Yes, the reverse hasn't been lapped by me. I lapped the yellow side when I got it, and I started to lap the hybrid side, but ran out of patience. I'll get around to doing that soon.

i just tryed getting some slurry up of my hybrid and i got bags of it of my slurry stone , but to reckon most of it is of the slurry stone, having said that i'm sure this happens with the normal side but not as much. when i lapped my hybrid there was very little slurry just watery . yet when i lap yellow normal coticule i get bags of slurry.

 

[Bart]

I don't really care whether the slurry comes from the rubbing stone or the hone itself. As long as it works. We've tried various slurry stones and did not find that they'd have a big influence on the way particular Coticule performs. Fast slurry stones did not noticeably speed up slow Coticules and slow slurry stones did not noticeably slow down fast Coticules. Neither did we ever found any slurry stone/Coticule combination that promoted a better or easier outcome than any other combination. An experiment with blue slurry on Coticules was abandoned before anyone could notice an advantage.
Transferring slurry to glass, works, but only for a while. The slurry wears out and there are no new garnets to enter the slurry. I am convinced that on a Coticule, the garnets not only abrade the steel of the razor, but also the surface of the hone, removing the softer binder, exposing and releasing fresh garnets. That is probably one of the factors that contribute to the speed of a Coticule, although I've never found any truth in the claim that soft stones are always faster than hard stones. I've seen plenty of hard stones that were very fast. Also the hybrid side of a Les latneuses is vary hard, but certainly not slow.

Yohann,
Have you tried a bit more pressure?

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[garyhaywood]

the one thing i have noticed , on hybrid no matter what slurry stone i use the hone cuts just the same, that being very quik. so the surface must play a big part, and yes it does work and that is all that matters.

regards gary

 

[yohannrjm]

Bart and Gary:

Agreed! The surface does make a difference, even with the observed minimal abrasion of the surface. I guess even a little bit of contribution from the surface will have an effect on the egde - especially at the final polishing stages.

Also, Bart: Yes, when I got nice edges from this stone, I used a little pressure. I posted about this hone a few months ago (when I was getting the nice edges).

I've recently been trying the 'very light touch' for the polishing stages, and perhaps that was no good for this hone.

 

[Guest]

If it helps I've created slurry with coticule slurry stone on the escher hone.The result by the dilucot method was exactly same like a coticule on the coticule but not same like an escher on the escher. In an another post i will explain my expperiens comparing a vintage coticule and an
escher.And do not keep you in agony the edge of the yellow king is always best.
Wishes
Emmanuel

 

[gvt100]

bart, you say an experiment with blue slurry on coticule was abandoned. were any differences noticed?

 

[Bart]

bart, you say an experiment with blue slurry on coticule was abandoned. were any differences noticed?

Some find it easier to get the desired keenness by use of a BBW. I believe this is, because BBWs generally display far less of the slurry dulling effect. That made me wonder if using a BBW slurry stone could perhaps make the dilution phase of Dilucot a bit easier, or less error prone. I tried it a couple of times, with excellent results. Yet I get excellent results with using a normal slurry stone as well, and since I'm not inexperienced, it's impossible for me to judge whether the mixed slurry made it easier or not. It's very difficult to mimic a novice's struggle with steady dilution, once that has become second nature. I launched a public call in the Researchers Section of this forum, to try a BBW-slurry stone on a Coticule, and report back about the results. Paul, Ralfson (both experienced), Matt and Stewart (at that time both less experienced) gave it all a couple of goes. It surely worked, with results being on par with the normal approach. But on whether it was actually easier or not, we never reached a conclusion. Other matters demanded attention and the thread became abandoned. These things happen.

For some practical advice, in order of importance (and augmenting keenness),

1. If the honing stroke is unstable, one will never get good results using a hone.
2. If the dilution is not gradually and steadily moving in the right direction (thinner all the time / never dryer), then the resulting keenness will not be good enough. The use a BBW slurry stone instead of a regular one might help.

3. If all is well, the dilution phase of Dilucot will get your razor to the violin stage of keenness. The rest is a matter of finishing it well. If you can't play the violin with a hanging hair (read about the HHT here) the edge is not ready for the finishing stage.

4. If you want to experience the true brilliance of a Coticule edge, you must succeed in making the edge keen enough to sever a clean hanging hair at a minimum distance of 15mm from the holding point. If you have some experience with Unicot, let's just say that the edge should sever a hanging hair equally well as after a Unicot procedure. Do not fool yourself at this point. The edge must meet these terms before any stropping. Yes, stropping will give it a boost, but for brilliant results you want to be at this level before applying that final boost.

5. If you only can pop very thick hair, or get HHT-responsiveness closer to the holding point with normal hairs; try lather: Load a moistened brush generously with shaving soap (not cream). Paint it on the Coticule till you have a creamy layer on it (consistency of molten ice cream). Hone with X-strokes. The lather will soon dry and forms a slick coat on top of the surface. That is intentional. Just keep going. Probe with the HHT regularly.(clean the edge with tissue paper before testing) Stop honing when it maxes out.
6. Only then, clean the razor well with some tissue paper and strop it well on linen and leather (60 laps on each).

Kind regards and Happy New Year,
Bart.

 

[towliff]

Its been a long time since I've posted on here. Sorry for my absence, a physics masters is pretty demanding!

As for using blue slurry on the coticule, I (as a novice honer, with very little success with dilucot) have found it much easier to reach a good keenness through dilucot using some blue slurry, rather than just the coticule slurry. This is, as Bart very correctly described, due to inconsistent honing strokes and inconsistent dilution. I have found the blue slurry much more forgiving for errors of this nature.

Hope this helps

Happy New Year,

James