Coticule Slurry

[jascas]

Gentlemen:

I would like some feed back on the slurry ability of my coti. I would describe my stone as being "reluctant" regarding slurry. It takes quite some effort to raise slurry (certainly more than in the videos). The slurry finally gets to "light" milky consistency and does not seem to ever get any more viscous. Reaching anything approaching "cream" appears to be out of the question.

After two or three sets of 30 half-strokes the slurry begins to turn grey, so metal is being abraded. After another three or so sets the slurry becomes darker, maybe medium grey and there she sits. It seems any amount of strokes doesn't cause further darkening. At that point I usually clean the stone and blade, raise new slurry and begin all over. The same thing happens again, and again. How would you analyze these observations? Does it appear that I have a "slow" cutting stone?

Thanks for your observations,

JasCas

 

[garyhaywood]

your stone is cutting well , well enough by far to hone a razor . tip your slurry stone at an angle and rub up some slurry , this helps raize slurry , i find a smaller slurry stone works better. even slow er coticules will work very well. if your dilucoting you don't need to refresh slurry.

cheers gary

 

[Matt]

Hi, Jack... ermmmm, JasCas :

Nice, it's not common to call viscosity viscosity instead of density. :thumbup:

It's true that some stones are more reluctant to release slurry than others, while this has nothing to do with the speed of the stone. Tilting your slurry stone while rubbing helps, so it's abraded at the edge which makes contact with a coticule. Some also use a DMT stone to raise slurry.

To start with: are you trying UniCot, or DiluCot?

If you rinse the stone and raise new slurry in the middle of honing, you have very little odds of making it of the same dilution and hence you either step back a few dilutions, or even worse, you skip some, and the new, more diluted slurry will not catch up.

[small]I wouldn't bother too much about the color of the slurry, as it's resultant of the hone, the slurry stone and finally the steel the razor is made of. If steel enters the slurry, it does its job, and this what counts. Rather pay attention to slurry consistency, evergreen comparison by Dr Ralfson: "think milk not cream and never yoghurt". My advice would be to neglect the color at all.[/small]

I wrote the thing above, but I reread your post and maybe there's something to it, so let's see what others will say.

regards,
Matt

 

[BlueDun]

Jascas,

considering your observations on discoloration I would guess that your hone tends to be on the slower side.
Mind my formulation: "tends to be". My own experience is that not every Coti will end up with a dark grey slurry, albeit being fast enough for setting a bevel in decent time.
However, don't be to focused on slurry discoloration and speed. It is a Coti and therefore capable of producing that favorable edge. Read the instructions, follow the tips already given above, and get to know your hone. And do start with dilucot. This approach is much easier to get used to and it will easily yield reproducible results to the beginner. And because of the mechanics of setting the secondary bevel at the end the speed of the respective coti used is much less of importance for getting a keen edge quickly.

Cheers
BlueDun

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Jascas,
of producing that favorable edge. Read the instructions, follow the tips already given above, and get to know your hone. And do start with dilucot. This approach is much easier to get used to and it will easily yield reproducible results to the beginner. And because of the mechanics of setting the secondary bevel at the end the speed of the respective coti used is much less of importance for getting a keen edge quickly.

Cheers
BlueDun

Surely you meant Unicot?

As said from me too, it sounds like the stone is spot on, and if you change your slurry after setting the bevel it is very likely to throw you way off

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[BlueDun]

Ooops, sorry 'bout that.
Good thing we have Ralfson watching over us and keeping us from causing trouble ...
Of course UNICOT !!!

 

[Bart]

No need to refresh the slurry. Slurry discoloration depends on many factors. Tape on the spine reduces the steel that enters the mixture and may add a color of it's own (my tape is blue ). Also the Coticule plays a part, and I'm not only talking about its speed. There are several minerals in Coticule rock that produce a while color, but not all these components are equally opaque. While steel is a blackening component, these opaque rock elements are a whitening factor. That explains why the slurry can become darker as it becomes more diluted with water. Equal or growing amounts of the blackening component and diminishing amounts of the whitening component.

But all that theory should only serve to ease your mind. The color of a slurry should be the least of your worries while honing.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[jascas]

Thank you all for your useful responses. As regards Dulicot I haven't thought about trying this method because it seems to me that since my slurry never achieves much viscosity to begin with that I'd begin to dilute from a slurry that is already somewhat dilute. Am I wrong?

It also seems to me that Coti with slurry, BBW with slurry and Coti with just water will all remove metal. Only the speed of removal will vary. In other words, if one spent enough time a bevel could, in theory, be set with just water on Coti. Am I correct?

Thanks again,

JasCas

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Thank you all for your useful responses. As regards Dulicot I haven't thought about trying this method because it seems to me that since my slurry never achieves much viscosity to begin with that I'd begin to dilute from a slurry that is already somewhat dilute. Am I wrong?

You are wrong, if your slurry was too thin you would not be able to set the bevel, that in itself is a good marker for slurry thats just right, too thick and the edge will be too dull to shave arm hair, too thin and you will grow a beard doing half strokes waiting for the edge to shave arm hair.

The slurry used in Dilucot is exactly the same as the first stage of Unicot, its doing the same job.

It also seems to me that Coti with slurry, BBW with slurry and Coti with just water will all remove metal. Only the speed of removal will vary. In other words, if one spent enough time a bevel could, in theory, be set with just water on Coti. Am I correct?

You are correct, they all cut metal, however when it comes to setting bevels there is an optimum degree of cutting, and one that is quite frankly virtually useless.
I have not tested that enough to give you a time frame, but I believe you are talking many hours from dulled on glass to setting the bevel on water only, thats thousands of half strokes instead of 2 or 3 sets of 30 that it takes with slurry.

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Bart]

If you can spend a couple of weeks honing on water, yes, you would be correct.
On the vast majority of Coticules the speed difference between slurry and water is very high.
If you ever have sanded a wooden surface and tried skipping a grit number of your sandpaper progression, you already know that it does not just takes twice as long to do the same work. It's more of an exponential function, and skipping a grit can easily take 10 times as long. Sharpening is not entirely the same as hand sanding a table top, but still some of the principles apply.

The Dilucot method illustrates that quite well. If you dilute too fast, there's little chance of catching up with the neglected keenness later in the process. Of course you could start on water and wait (long) till a natural slurry builds up from rubbing the razor over the Coticule. That slurry would eventually speed up your honing, but it would also introduce the slurry dulling effect.

Slurry doesn't need much viscosity to start with. Milk is pretty fluent, right? But it's not the viscosity we're dealing with, as that is also altered by other factors, such as the amount of steel that entered the mixture, the drop of dish soap that some use, etc. It's the density of the garnets within the slurry that defines what is happening. If you start with a good opaque slurry, you're going to be fine.

If I may ask, what way are you using your Coticule?

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[jascas]

Gentlemen:
Thanks again for you helpful replies. Bart asks how I have been using my Coticule. Well... I raise a slurry (as I stated above of what appears to me to be of "watery milk" consistency) and then begin sets of 30 half-strokes. More often than not, I need 8 or ten or more sets to shave arm hair, and I mean barely shave arm hair, certainly not "popping" arm hair. This is a function of the condition of the bevel I achieve not my shaving technique which is very good. I then proceed to x-strokes on the coti with slurry, maybe 3-4 sets then go to tape and final x-strokes on water only. By this time I am able to get a decent shave, but not outstanding. I want very much to get away from the tape for two reasons. I actually like the appearance of hone wear on the spine if it is not extreme, and more importantly I want to be able to do touch-ups as needed on my barber hone without the bother of taping. So now I am going to the BBW side with slurry after being able to shave arm hair and doing sets of half-strokes and eventually to regular x-strokes before finishing on Coticule side with water.
Although I am experienced shaving with a straight, I am new to honing. I'm sure things will get better with experience. How does the above technique sound?

Thanks - JasCas

 

[Bart]

It sounds good. But there's just no substitute for experience, which will come with practice.

If you want to avoid tape, I definitely recommend to read up with Dilucot. . If you like using the blue, your certainly can fit that one in.

Having read your post twice, here's some tailored advice:

1. Don't be shy of using a bit more pressure on a Coticule (or BBW), until you start finishing on water. Reduce your halfstroke cunt to 20 per side.
2. After your bevel reaches the arm hair level, immediately start dilution, one or two drops at a time, using halfstrokes.
3. After about 10 dilutions, your razor should already be much keener and shaves arm hair very easily. Also the TPT can reveal augmenting keenness.
4. Here's where I would fit in the BBW. Raise a thin, slightly transparent slurry. Keep using halfstrokes. Thin till you're almost on plain water.
5. Two sets of halfstrokes on the Coticule with clean water.
6. Rinse the Coticule again, and finish with 50 light X-strokes on water.

Strop the edge very well. It is good to monitor that with the HHT. If you think it should be better, strop again on leather with more sag (Another one of these nonsensical adages, that I believed for years myself, is to keep the strop taut at all times.

Please let us know what happens?

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

1. Don't be shy of using a bit more pressure on a Coticule (or BBW), until you start finishing on water. Reduce your halfstroke cunt to 20 per side.

We all know you meant Count right? ...lol

strop again on leather with more sag (Another one of these nonsensical adages, that I believed for years myself, is to keep the strop taut at all times)

Thats exactly what I do too, it took me a long time to figure that out, I kept wondering why I didnt feel the draw that people said comes from a good strop, now I adjust the tension of the strop, and the pressure of the blade until I feel its just right, it made a HUGE difference :thumbup:

Good luck with your progress

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Matt]

1. Don't be shy of using a bit more pressure on a Coticule (or BBW), until you start finishing on water. Reduce your halfstroke cunt to 20 per side.

We all know you meant Count right? ...lol

Laughed my ass off, sorry : :

BTW, truly nice tips about stropping, I just started to discover some of these things myself. :thumbup:

regards,
Matt

 

[kg4ghn]

1. Don't be shy of using a bit more pressure on a Coticule (or BBW), until you start finishing on water. Reduce your halfstroke cunt to 20 per side.

We all know you meant Count right? ...lol

hhahahahahahaahahaha

strop again on leather with more sag (Another one of these nonsensical adages, that I believed for years myself, is to keep the strop taut at all times)

Thats exactly what I do too, it took me a long time to figure that out, I kept wondering why I didnt feel the draw that people said comes from a good strop, now I adjust the tension of the strop, and the pressure of the blade until I feel its just right, it made a HUGE difference :thumbup:

Good luck with your progress

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

I have been playing with this recently as well. When I first started shaving with a straight last march, I actually pulled my hook out of the wall I was holding it so tight...

While I didn't hold it THAT tight anymore, I have just in the last month or so started experimenting with holding the strop even looser. It has worked good so far.

 

[Matt]

I have been playing with this recently as well. When I first started shaving with a straight last march, I actually pulled my hook out of the wall I was holding it so tight...

That thread is getting more and more funny. Has anyone managed to tear his strop apart?

 

[DJKELLY]

PLEASE don't edit that "20 laps cunt" post. Posterity deserves a giggle, too.

 

[Woodash]

Maybe we should start a new Cafeteria Category dedicated to this new topic. :w00t: :w00t:

 

[Bart]

Back on topic, concerning sag and cunts, this explains it all:

[img=600]http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000854099/polls_saggy_boobs_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg[/img]

 

[wdwrx]

hahahaha!
love it!