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coticule surface

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
Bart have you noticed after honing on slurry then dilute method once down to clean water how the surface can still feel grabby as if invisable slurry is still there making the blade chitter a little. But once left to rest then rewet the blade glides freely and smoothly its as if the paticules have obsorbed back into the rock i have noticed this on a couple of coti i wonderd if it is a fault ?
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
Bart have you noticed after honing on slurry then dilute method once down to clean water how the surface can still feel grabby as if invisable slurry is still there making the blade chitter a little. But once left to rest then rewet the blade glides freely and smoothly its as if the paticules have obsorbed back into the rock i have noticed this on a couple of coti i wonderd if it is a fault ?
As a matter of fact, I have noticed something like that too.
While honing razors, I usually find myself sitting at the kitchen table with a Coticule, a small bowl of honing water and, of course, a razor. I use the bowl of water to sprinkle water onto the hone, but when it's time to completely rinse the blade and hone, I always get up to the sink and rinse everything under the tap. Next I start honing on water, and I always notice a slight but clear difference between honing on completely washed down slurry and honing on fresh water. But, even when I refresh the water for the second time, there really is a noteworthy difference. After, well eh, let's call it the "first rinse", there's always some suction noticeable, that's not there after the "second rinse". I have noticed this on all hones. I *think* that when the surface of the hone was forced to release slurry, it first needs some breaking in before it reaches the glass-like feel of a Coticule that's only used with water.
I haven't set up an actual experiment yet, but I do have the impression that the surface after the "first rinse" is a bit more effective at refining, while the "second rinse" surface it better of polishing.
It certainly deserves further observation and trial. I think the "first rinse" surface might be excellent to perform touch-ups (followed by some polishing on the "second rinse" surface).

I wonder if we're the only two that ever made that observation?
Maurice Celis did contact me some time ago to ask if I ever noticed much difference between a freshly rubbed Coticule and one that's been used with only water for a long time.
Now my Coticules all get "rubbed";) on a fairly regular base, so I couldn't really offer him a clear answer. Maybe later.

Best regards,
Bart.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
I have noticed this alot. Say my coticule has been rested for a couple of days it is smooth and glassy when in use. If i form slurry then rinse i can feel resistance with water i have to let it dry then rewet and it is smooth agian at first i thought it was my slurry stone making surface uneven with rubbing in circles etc i even thought my hone was a dodgy coticule at least you cleared that one up.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
just honed again on a razor with the sme 8x3 when i got down to diluted slurry there was tremendous resistants on the hone again i cleaned and refreshed still resistants not as strong left to rest cleaned again and slightly less feed back after resting for athew minutes the hone had settled but still notas glassy as my other two cotis it makes me wonder why. My other two are a lot more glassier feeling than this 8x3. any sugestions ?
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
Bart i just let my wife hone on the 8x3 and the other two and her exact words was the 8x3 felt softer and the other two she said they felt harder she's write the other two feel glassy and the 8x3 has softer feed back i think the 8x3 is developing a slight invisable slurry when honing with water how would i no for sure.I'm just concerned it might not be giving me a great final polish that all.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
No worries, Gary.

The truth is in the shave. There is a lot of difference in feedback between various Coticules. Some of them feel like glass and work almost silently. There is almost no "cutting" sensation coming from this ones. At the other side of the spectrum we have Coticules that offer amazing feedback: a distinct, almost singing sound of steel being abraded, louder and more with slurry, but still very present with water only. You can also feel the hone working through the fingers that hold the razor. These last Coticules are always faster than the ones that offer minimal feedback. I have a booklet somewhere that says, that in the old days, some people used a fast Coticule with lots of feedback to start out and finished on a slow Coticule with little feedback.
Honesty dictates that I personally never found much evidence to find any practical advantage in that. All Coticule edges shave very well to me. Some hones take a bit longer to get there, but I can feel little difference in the final edges. Yesterday I made a side by side comparison between 2 stones that are on opposite sides of the sprectrum, one loud and fast, the other slow and silent. For the first time ever I was able to detect a very slight difference in the edges. The edge of the slow Coticule was just a little bit smoother. I would probably never know it if I hadn't shaved one half of my face with the first razor and the other half with the second. The difference was solely in feel after the shave and not during the shave. You can read my post in the thread I started about the Coticule Vault.

I understand that you often add a few laps on a strop with Chromium Oxide after the honing. In that case, it's almost impossible that you'd detect any difference in the final outcome. All my experience so far has been that difference between the final edge you can get off a Coticule are too minute to stay present after a stropping on Chromium Oxide.

Best regards,
Bart.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
What i do is i always test shave of coticule if happy then i may add cronium oxide. What you say sounds about right there is tremendous feed back of this coticule with slurry it cuts very similar to my other two with the halv stroke what you do or circles the slurry turns grey quiker and the shave on my cheek last night did seem smooth and was good. What i will do is shave again with that razor then i will do 50 laps on water with other coticule and see if theres much differance. The chap i brought the hone from did say in the add the surface gave alot of feed back.
So the more the blade cuts in to hone the more likley the razor is nearly there would you say.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
What i do is i always test shave of coticule if happy then i may add cronium oxide. What you say sounds about right there is tremendous feed back of this coticule with slurry it cuts very similar to my other two with the halv stroke what you do or circles the slurry turns grey quiker and the shave on my cheek last night did seem smooth and was good. What i will do is shave again with that razor then i will do 50 laps on water with other coticule and see if theres much differance.
That sounds like an excellent plan. Keep us posted, ok?

garyhaywood said:
So the more the blade cuts in to hone the more likley the razor is nearly there would you say.
I'm not sure what you mean with that statement, Gary. Do you mean, the edge starts trying to dig itself into the surface of the Coticule?
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
Not cut into the stone but the resistants gets stronger or like you said before i can feel feed back through my fingers when honing. I just read up on the oo4/ coticule do you no how much that one would cost? I want a quik cutter just to compare. Do you have similar in just coti not combo if its same price i don't mind combo but if its more for combo i'd prefer just coti as my other two are natural combos.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
Bart i find the back and forth stroke works mega quik now i am use to it. The only thing is i find a lot of regular blades need a slight roll and rock towards the end of stroke how do you tackle this using back and forth stroke.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
Not cut into the stone but the resistants gets stronger or like you said before i can feel feed back through my fingers when honing. I just read up on the oo4/ coticule do you no how much that one would cost? I want a quik cutter just to compare. Do you have similar in just coti not combo if its same price i don't mind combo but if its more for combo i'd prefer just coti as my other two are natural combos.
Someone already has an option on n°4, but I can put you second on the list if you want, in case he doesn't take it. It's my best pall Kris, and he's currently testing two Coticules from the Vault.

I don't know the prices yet. I still need to ask Rob or Maurice about that. You could look at n°6. It's not a combo. It has amazing feedback and is one of the fastest Coticules I've met so far. It has a few cosmestic flaws and it's not a large one. I find the width ideal, by the way. Small enough to tackle blades with a warp and such, but still wide enough allow a steady stroke. Length is not luxurious but certainly ok at 16 cm. I expect this hone to be cheap, and he who get's it owns an amazing piece of Coticule. Same for n°4 actually, but it don't think that one will be so cheap. It's a thick combo from "La petite blanche", a legendary layer, that has not stolen its reputation.

Bart.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
Bart i find the back and forth stroke works mega quik now i am use to it. The only thing is i find a lot of regular blades need a slight roll and rock towards the end of stroke how do you tackle this using back and forth stroke.
I look at it as a "half" X-stroke. That's also what I'm calling them now: half strokes. Basically, with the "rolling" half stroke, you do exactly the same as with the rolling X-stroke, except you don't flip the razor over, but move back with the reverse motion instead.

We're planning on shoothing video footage for the half strokes. Keep and eye on the Sharpening Academy page that deals with razor honing strokes. I'm in Berlin this weekend for some honing sessions, and I'll ask someone to film me doeing the different variations of half strokes. If all goes well, by next week we could have the footage online.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
So half stroke using rolling x do you still keep your index finger on the blade with roll or not.
Yes, the finger puts some pressure on the blade.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
Bart if you can get me price on 006 i be interested ? and i be second reserve on 004,
It's noted. I'm going to contact Ardennes right now.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
ok bart.I'm using dilucot method and getting good results i some times go bbw s coti water just or ch.5 after dilucot method.I've tryed the u nicot method adding double bevel and the hht passes alot better but i find the shave to be a little harsh is it me or as any one else noticed this. i have honed a blade up tonight on dilute method and one on unicot method i will shave and see how it goes. I have to admit i only used the unicot method 3 or four times so i need to try more.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
That's an interesting question, that actually deserves a new thread.

I don't think the Unicot method should give a harsher edge than the Dilucot method, but who's to really tell? I never did a side by side comparison. I am pretty sure though, that the one layer of tape extra in the Unicot procedure isn't going to alter the bevel angle enough to be noticed during the shave. Other than that, I can't think of any reason why the shave could be harsher. The Unicot produces a very narrow bevel, just like you would find on a blade with an extreme hollow grind. The fact that those sharpen up so easily on a Coticule, is what triggered the Unicot idea in my twisted brain, in the first place.

So, I don't really see it happening, but it never hurts to set up an experiment. I would like to encourage you to do the experiment "blind". Set up a straight shaving friend with 4 razors or so. (preferably even identical ones - if you wish I can lend 4 Double Arrows for that) Half of them honed with Dilucot, the other half with Unicot. Let your friend assess them without him knowing which is which. If he can hone, he could dull on glass and return the favor and see if you can discern between his edges. That's a pretty bulletproof way of finding out if you guys can discern any differences attributed to the methods.
Beware however, that the Unicot method easily reaches the full potential of the Coticule, while the Dilucot is more difficult to master and easily leaves some margin for improvement.

Best regards,
Bart.
 

Rosco

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
Bart if you can get me price on 006 i be interested ? and i be second reserve on 004,
I'll take 006 if for any reason Gary doesn't want it.

Connor
 
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