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Get rid of a secundary bevel

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
Honing with tape is often considered by many as evil.
Most of people knows it's easy and fast to get a keen edge but all the same it's evil. They say once you have honed with tape you will never come back or else your razor will lose some performance and gain a huge hone wear.

So this is just a poll
1) How many (average) sets of half strokes is required to get rid of this secundary bevel ?
2) Have you observed a visible hone wear?
3) Have you experienced some prformance loss?

I have tried it some time ago, I remembered it took me 5 sets on milky slurry and it seemed there was some more honewear but less than 2/10mm (but at that time, I was more a beginner than now)

Regards

Laurent
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
i'm not sure on two of the questions . I no for sure one set of half sstrokes on say my la patite blanch is all it would take. I'd dull edge again and no for sure it was one bevel again by tpt or arm shave test.
Two sets would easily do it. I would say bhone wear would be hardly any.If any. i would say no performance lost. I would say wider bevels can be a little more trickier , thats what i have found in the past.

gary
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
I ignore those kinds of people because they tend to speak in absolutes, and their unmovable "truths" completely go against my experiences.

There's nothing wrong with a microbevel, it takes very little work to remove them, and that exercise will in no way appreciably increase hone wear...
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Laurent you heve to read thoroughly the unicot method.
To return to the previous status (without secondary bevel)enough a full dilucot.
An example.Having a blade of spine thickness 5,62 mm ,blade width 18,49 mm the arising angle should be 17,5.Adding a tape of 0,13 mm the edge will be modified to 18,3. By 30 strokes on misty slurry and 50 strokes on water as Bart suggest ,secondary bevel should be so narrow that will be invisible to the naked eye.To return as i said to the previous status depends of the whole edge width but not of the secondary bevel.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
Paul said:
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I think that anybody here shares this point of view because we have tried this method.
But what makes often people reluctant to try unicot is that myth spread by some self proclaimed "specialist" that microbevel is harmful for the blade and prevent from using another honing method afterwards.
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
Emmanuel said:
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Emmanuel, my purpose was only to make a poll. I have already used unicot with success but as you know still have to improve my dilucot. The only time I have converted a unicot edge to a dilucot one was on a blade with some hone wear and I was more a beginner than now:blush: .
My faith is that if people knows that they can revert witout difficulties and harm for their razor they would more inclined to try unicot.
 

Matt

Well-Known Member
chti_lolo said:
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Laurent, it's just a matter of listening to reason backed up by the actual experience, not the opinions, or assumptions... Many will settle just for that... It's more the case of an open-mindedness to me.

Matt
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
In essence, the added layer of tape in Unicot, is very similar to the use of a pasted strop. The pasted strops uses cushioning and/or deflection to work only the tip of the edge. Unicot uses a layer of tape to work only the tip of the edge. Both methods -however slightly- change the angle of the bevel near the very tip. Both methods also require an amount of bevel correction, if you ever want to RE-hone the razor. With Unicot, you know the difference is only one layer of tape. With the pasted strop, certainly a hanging pasted strop, the difference can be significantly more.

I don't know who warns against the use of tape, but the argument that tape prevents any subsequent honing method makes no sense whatsoever. The only downside of tape is that one needs to retape for touching up with the Coticule. But a similar disadvantage is found with pasted stropping. Once done, the edge can't be touched-up with a Coticule any longer full stop.
But as Gary pointed out, resetting the bevel without tape is not problematic at all.

Kind regards,
Bart
 

decraew

Well-Known Member
Laurent, I think there's often confusion between taping to obtain a primary or a secondary bevel.
I do tend to agree not to use tape for a primary bevel because of issues in the - very - long run (that makes it a principle thing).
However, there indeed is no worry at all with a secondary bevel.
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
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I totally agree with you, Bart. But it is not the point I'm raising.

Just for the little history, sometimes ago, on a french forum, a "newbie" failed in putting a shave ready edge on his out of the factory razor with the traditionnal french method (use of pasted paddle strop). Eventually, his razor couldn't shave armhair anymore. He bought a coticule and was asking other members for some help. I gave him the links to the dilucot and unicot articles on coticule.be and said him that dilucot was more difficult to master but that I had some good success with unicot. So if he couldn't achieve a great edge with dilucot he could divert to unicot and just after a lot of warnings came to deter the new member...

So maybe my poll is not a good idea, but a few more lines in the unicot article to show how to revert to a standard edge and what that implies would be welcome. Because it's a pity that someone could be deter from using a good method by a renowed member with the only argrument that old barbers considered this method as bad.

Best regards

Laurent
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
I do understand the point you're raising, Laurent. But I don't think it can be solved by anything we can say, write or do. I went through almost every imaginable aspect of a discussion why Unicot couldn't possibly be good -or even work-, when I first introduced it as a concept for sharpening razors.

You are facing the human psyche here, and there is little that can be done to change that.

People are generally protective about what they do and know. Although I think the "old barbers" statement is just an authoritative arguments to shut you up, I have often noticed that professionals who have done something in a certain way for as long as they can remember, usually have a very closed mind about it. I'm sure it has to do with age, but also with pride. Stubborn pride...
Speaking of which, I have also noticed that people who have made prior statements in a certain direction, will often adhere to that direction for no other reason than they fear loosing face and reputation. This can turn to extremes, to the point where your arguments are deliberately misunderstood and even misrepresented.

With my precious post, I only wanted to provide a strong point to illustrate how the "disadvantage" (if anyone wants to call it that way) of a secondary bevel is not greater than the consequences pasted strops. It might convince people who follow the discussion with a open mind, that there is no harm in trying it. When they do, Unicot will speak for itself. But no point you can make, will convince those who are opposing it for the reasons addressed above. In fact, the more convincing you arguments, the more annoyed they will become. In the end, they will rather question your motives and character, because anything is better than continuing the actual discussion.

People like to wrap themselves in their own self-righteousness, certainly when they feel backed by a group.
We might even be doing the same in this very thread, but at least we are not telling other guys what NOT to do.

Kind regards,
Bart
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
You're right Bart;) what is more important is to make available well documented method so that people can make their mind by themselves and raise relevant questions if they want to (that's what we have done). In every decision there's a risk and a serious documentation contributes to making someone more confident.


Kind regards

Laurent
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
Can someone please explain what these people fear would happen? The idea that creating a small microbevel can create long term problems with the razor makes no sense to me at all.
 

dnullify

Well-Known Member
I think the common stigma to using tape, is using tape for the entire process.
I think that this would create a bevel that is not true to the spine.

In an effort to protect the spine from hone wear the result is a progressively more obtuse bevel, which then takes more work to revert to a spine-true edge.

Just my theory.
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
Friend dnullify.Firstly the word stigma is not suitable for this issue.I know very well the word meaning due to is clearly Greek.Stigma literally means point but the common perception concerning the social actions declare shame.About the health stigma means sickness.The protection of the spine is completely different purpose.Here the taped spine is just to create a microbevel for easier honing.But even for them want to protect their razors spine is not wrong,however the edge becoming obtuse and obtuse as years pass because the edge wears much more than the spine with or without tape.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Ok just to answer the op's questions

I do two or three sets of half strokes to set the bevel, I have never known it to contribute to excessive hone wear, and neither would I say it lowers performance

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
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