holidays homeworks

[chti_lolo]

Some days ago, I won an auction for a puma 39 6/8. I received it yesterday and realized it was not in a so good condition that it seemed on the bad photography (but it is the game!!!: ).

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz232/chti_lolo/puma39-1.jpg
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz232/chti_lolo/puma39-2.jpg

Anyway, this razor could be something to train my honing technique on. The blade width is 19mm, it has some hone wear about 1 mm, but no visible hole in the edge which seems continuous when I pass my thumb along. Is it something I can use or do I have to put it in a drawer or in the trash can?

I'm waiting for a coticule (Maurice from Ardennes Coticule is looking for a La Verte in his stock).
What can I do in the meantime to restore this razor a little? I just want to remove rust and black stain, I'm not looking for a perfect mirror finish) I have read that I can use wet/dry sandpaper (240,400,600 grits) to remove the rust (around the tang), but what can I use to remove the black stain on the blade? can I use it on the etching?
By the way, do I wet the sandpaper or should I use it dry?

thanks in advance for all suggestions

 

[chti_lolo]

it will be better like this!

 

[danjared]

I personally dislike sand paper immensely for razor restoration. I like using steel wool (#000 and #0000) with diamond pastes and something like Maas (to help remove rust). That razor looks like it's in pretty good condition, though, aside from the scratches and oxidation. You may even be able to avoid removing the gold wash.

 

[Smythe]

Well she has a few “spots” of rust and it’s best to gently remove them with steel wool with some metal polish… stay away from the gold wash and etch if you want the preserve them.
But as you suggested, you don’t need to go overboard, so long as the major rust is gone and you have mostly white steel at the edge then you are good to go…

I also do not like sandpaper, however if you chose to go that rout, you should visit the nearest auto parts store and get some wet/dry sandpaper. 3M “Wetodry” series is good and can get 220 400 600 800 and 1000 grit sheets in a single package (do not use the sandpaper from wood working store… they are not waterproof and not designed for hard steel). But you don’t need to get all the grits, in fact for that razor I would suggest 1000 or 2000 grit W/D paper, that will remove the most amount of loose rust and some pitting without removing too much steel.

There is some rust on the tang… since you only want to practice honing there is no reason to worry about the tarnish on the tang (trust me… it wont affect the honing or the shave) however if you one day want to remove that rust it’s best to remove the scales first. If you refer not to remove it then sand the tang as close to the scales as possible then leave the rest… so long as you keep it dry it won’t be a problem (though an old toothbrush with metal polish helps).

One last thing... before you start honing that blade, make sure your edge is reasonably "straight?"... have a look at this thread: http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/504.html

Please let us know how this works out.

 

[chti_lolo]

Thanks,

I am reassured, so it was not so bad a deal if I can use it for training.
I want to remove visible oxidation because my wife is afraid of tetanus and won't let me use the razor...
I think I will not try to remove the scale for the moment (it seems like somebody else tried it before and there are some file wear on the scale near the pivot) as I have no washer... things I may buy in the future.

So my first purchase list will be : 1000, 2000 grit W/D sanpaper from an auto parts store and/or #000, #0000 steel wool.
What kind of metal polish should I use with steel wool?

Maas product are not sold in France, can I use something like Miror Argentil instead( it is a liquid that is used to clean silverware or stainless steel,chromium... )?

Do I have to wet the sandpaper or should I use it dry?

I have already tried to remove rust on the tang with a rag and baking soda but hardly remove 10% in half an hour, should I use more "agressive" paper 600 grit or less?

 

[wdwrx]

Hi. Here's my 2 cents...

I want to remove visible oxidation because my wife is afraid of tetanus and won't let me use the razor...

Tell her not to worry, Tetanus comes from a bacteria, not rust.

Wikipedia has this to say:
"Tetanus is often associated with rust, especially rusty nails, but this concept is somewhat misleading. Objects that accumulate rust are often found outdoors, or in places that harbor anaerobic bacteria, but the rust itself does not cause tetanus nor does it contain more C. tetani bacteria. The rough surface of rusty metal merely provides a prime habitat for a C. tetani endospore to reside, and the nail affords a means to puncture skin and deliver endospore into the wound. An endospore is a non-metabolising survival structure that begins to metabolise and cause infection once in an adequate environment. Because C. tetani is an anaerobic bacterium, it and its endospores survive well in an environment that lacks oxygen. Hence, stepping on a nail (rusty or not) may result in a tetanus infection, as the low-oxygen (anaerobic) environment is provided by the same object which causes a puncture wound, delivering endospores to a suitable environment for growth."

As long as you disinfect it, tetanus is the least of your worries.

So my first purchase list will be : 1000, 2000 grit W/D sanpaper from an auto parts store and/or #000, #0000 steel wool.
What kind of metal polish should I use with steel wool?

Maas product are not sold in France, can I use something like Miror Argentil instead( it is a liquid that is used to clean silverware or stainless steel,chromium... )?

My understanding is that those products operate on some kind of redox reaction, MASS, I think, is more of an abrasive. Any Wheel or rim polish available at an auto parts store would probably be better.

Do I have to wet the sandpaper or should I use it dry?

Wet. Some recommend WD-40 or other type of light machine oil.

I have already tried to remove rust on the tang with a rag and baking soda but hardly remove 10% in half an hour, should I use more "aggressive" paper 600 grit or less?

NO! not 600! Stay in the higher grits. See Smythe's post re; the rust at the tang. 600 grit will leave horrible scratches that may "attract" more rust. Save that for unpinning.

If you like, I can send you some washers and some lengths of 1/16" brass rod. Just drop me a PM. ( Ralfy's got a great system for making washers... I copied it and now I've got a bunch extra kicking around)


Kind regards,
-Chris

 

[chti_lolo]

Thank you Chris,

But it is to late , I was in a hurry to remove the black stain on the tang and don't follow the wise advice which were given to me by Smythe and Danjared.
There was a big amount of that black "rust" under the "red" rust on the tang.
I try first with #000 steel wool + miror : no result (you should be right, miror doesn't contain lots of abrasive)
then #000 steel wool + a natural polish made of soap and ultrafine clay ("pierre d'argent" in french)
then I handsanded with 1000 grit waterproof + WD40 no result (the abrasives went away from the paper)
then 600 grit +WD40
then 400 grit +WD40 : it does the job after about half an hour , I removed 90% of the black rust. It leaves some scratches but to me it wasn't very deep scratch.

: I have not followed your advsises, so what do I have to do now to repair my beginner mistake?

I have also a product called Belgom alu (but it is made for polishing aluminium rims)

Thanks also for your kind offer (washers and rod), Chris. But I will leave soon for holidays and may PM you later.

PS: it isn't possible to convince my wife that rust doesn't contain tetanus!

 

[Bart]

Don't be too hard on yourself. Apparently the corrosion was heavier than expected. You started with the softest method and slowly progressed to coarser, till you find an abrasive (400 grit) that could get the job done. I consider that good practice. (That doesn't mean I disagree with the good advice offered by our experienced members).
To do a perfect job, it would be necessary to unpin the razor and work at it with the scales removed. However, I suspect that you just want to get a serviceable razor without any rust. In that case, just leave the scales on, and work carefully around them. If you play with the various positions for opening a razor, you can get pretty close without actually removing the scales.

Here's what I would do:

- continue on 400 grit till, you're happy with the results. Don't be tempted to think you're going to remove that little bit of remaining black corrosion later in the process. Black oxidation is much tougher to remove than red oxidation (rust). It's still chemically bonded to the underlying steel and being an oxide, it's probably even harder than the bare steel.

- when all oxidation is gone, proceed to 600 grit and completely replace the scratch marks of the 600 grit. The best way to do that is to sand in a different direction, so that you can easily determine when all underlying 400 grit scratches are gone. I takes a lot of patience.

- if you're happy with the typical level of shine you find on most new production razors, proceed with 3M (Scotch Brite) mesh.

The finest grade will give you a nice satin finish. You can smooth it out a bit further with polish. In Europe, look for a product called Peek.

It's a multiple purpose polish, that works very well. I think it works similar as Maas.

I would leave it at that. Getting a mirror polish on a razor is a hobby on it's own, that requires perfect sanding up to 1000 grit or more and polishing with buffing wheels.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Paul]

You can buy micromesh with a "grit" rating of up to 12k off of eBay for a very reasonable amount (among many other places) that will leave very very fine scratch patterns (claimed to be undetectable to the human eye if executed well). I've seen pictures that were very impressive of a razor claimed to be polished all by hand using micromesh and some abrasive similar to what Bart referenced, but I've not seen such work up close... I do plan to get some of it at some point, but I've not been hit too hard by the restoration bug yet.

 

[chti_lolo]

Thanks for being so kind with me, Bart
you are right, I just want to get a serviceable razor without any rust. I think it might be something I can train honing on?
As often, I continued to work on the blade during one hour without waiting other advice
I leave the tang as it was (400 grits sanding) and try to remove black oxidation on the blade.
I used #000 steel wool, my magical "pierre d'argent" polish and some cotton buds (to work in the corner and near the edge).

So there is the first result (one step beyond)

There was no visible scratch and quite mirror finishing where there is no black stain using this method and I can get rid of the black oxidation. But under black oxidation, I discover pattern of grey oxidation which is much more difficult to remove. I don't know if these patterns are less thick than the grit of my "pierre d'argent" polish or if the pattern is under the level of the blade (because running my finger over I hardly can feel it).

Do I need to use other product than Bart's pad and polish cream to remove this? (surely, more elbow grease )

Bart, I am not an "aficionado" of auto part stores but in my local stores in France (Norauto, Feu Vert...), I have not found Peek. Is Peek sold in Belgium, and could you give me the name of retailers? do you think this razor will make a good candidate to start honing with a coticule?


Regards

Laurent

 

[Bart]

Thanks for being so kind with me, Bart
you are right, I just want to get a serviceable razor without any rust. I think it might be something I can train honing on?

It would make a perfect candidate. The only downside is that it will probably be really dull and in need of serious bevel reestablishment. That poses an additional challenge, but you'll have to learn how to tackle it sooner or later anyway.

But under black oxidation, I discover pattern of grey oxidation which is much more difficult to remove. I don't know if these patterns are less thick than the grit of my "pierre d'argent" polish or if the pattern is under the level of the blade (because running my finger over I hardly can feel it).

I suspect you have reached the onset of "pitting". These are recesses in the steel, caused by steel that was corroded away. Even if it is shallow, the only solution that truly restores the razor to an impeccable state, is to sand the entire blade down, till it is flush with the level of the deepest recess. That might actually take coarser sandpaper than 400 grit.
But, since you're only cleaning up the blade, I wouldn't bother with that. If you have a good cleaning polish and an applicator with some cushion, like a small pad of steel wool, you can try to get "inside" the pitting, and clean up the discoloration.

I am not an "aficionado" of auto part stores but in my local stores in France (Norauto, Feu Vert...), I have not found Peek. Is Peek sold in Belgium, and could you give me the name of retailers?

In Belgium, it is something you typically find in a supermarket. It's a multiple purpose polishing cream. Don't worry about the right brand, in you can't find it in France. Any multi purpose polishing paste will do. If the paste turns black while you're working, it's functioning fine. Just run a google search for "pate à polir métaux" and you'll find something. Poli-croom for instance. That's a good one as well. http://www.polirmalin.com/policroom-pate-molle-polir-p-78.html

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[chti_lolo]

It would make a perfect candidate. The only downside is that it will probably be really dull and in need of serious bevel reestablishment. That poses an additional challenge, but you'll have to learn how to tackle it sooner or later anyway.

Yes, it is really dull and has hone wear (1 mm width). I had to push my thumb on the edge if I want to cut myself. No need to run the razor on a glass jar
So what kind of Coticule will be best for me (total beginner in honing)? I think a moderate or fast stone with slurry.
I have contacted Maurice Celis for a "La veinette" kind of coti

This is a very easy Coticule for great results without much need for experience

. But I don't know if he will find another one in his stock.

But, since you're only cleaning up the blade, I wouldn't bother with that. If you have a good cleaning polish and an applicator with some cushion, like a small pad of steel wool, you can try to get "inside" the pitting, and clean up the discoloration.

That's what I'm going to do. I don't really want to have a perfect finish. Maybe Later?


Regards

Laurent