Hone I.D help needed

[tat2Ralfy]

I just picked these 2 stones up at our local market, the 1st is I believe a natural combination coti/bbw, the bbw side is raw and with both of these needing a good clean and lap its hard to tell, from what I can tell whilst at work it raises slurry on both sides just as my beloved #10 combination does, so I am hoping that its what I think
It measures 170mm (6 3/4") long, 42mm (1 5/8") wide and 20mm (3/4") thick








The second stone is much smaller at 22 mm (7/8") wide, 90mm (3 1/2") long, and 16mm (5/8") thick

It has a little wooden tray to sit in, and 1 side is very smooth and pale the other feels slightly rougher and is a speckled brown in colour, again it needs some tlc, it too raises creamy slurry when I have rubbed it wet with Abrasive paper, (hey I am at work..lol)








Tomorrow is my day off, so I will give the big one some tlc, and try my third find, An Amore straight, on it to see how it goes.

Thanks for looking and any help would be gratefully received
Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Smythe]

The first stone looks like a fine hone… but I will let our resident Coticule Czar have ago at it… I may be wrong but it does look like a glued combo.

Incidentally for folks reading this… When lapping those vintage hones it is better to lightly lap the surface to flatten the hone and remove most deep scratches, but leave shallow ones alone (they most often wont affect honing anyway). And don’t lap the surface to just to remove chips at the edge, it’s a waste of garnets… a more efficient way, simply round or taper the edges, to remove the smaller ones and make the bigger ones smaller (and if you do this creatively the big ones won’t affect the edge at all)… you have to round those edges before honing anyway… so you may as well “kill two birds with one stone”.

That second stone… looking at the side shot… appears to have oil on it… or maybe it’s the stain from the wooden box or beeswax used to set the stone in it… no idea what it is but looks interesting... please let us know how that one works out.

 

[mrmaroon]

If I were to guess I would say that second one is an Arkansas hone. It has the same features as a coarser one. Try it, if it doesn't cut a damn thing after 20000 laps you know your in the ballpark! On the other hand, ive never seen an Arkansas combination. It could very well be a color defect, Arkansas hones can be almost any color.

 

[Bart]

I'm afraid there isn't much to say. The first one is a vintage Coticule. Could come from any mine, any company. Looking at the blue part, it could be a La Veinette, but that's only a wild hunch. Personally, I don't think it's glued, but I'm not sure about that either. But: Coticule are no meant to talk about, they're meant for use. So I wouldn't worry to much about determination.

The second one is an odd piece. Is it a Coticule? Not every hone with 2 colors is one. Coticules were popular and had earned the highest reputation among hones. It's not unlikely that early synthetic hones were made to resemble a Coticule.
Maybe when you've cleaned it, it'll reveal more of its nature.

Out of curiosity, what did you pay Ralfson?

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Ok cleaned them both and lapped them
of course the top one is a coticule combination stone as I hoped, it cost me £5, 5.87 Euro, $7.17

The little bottom one is a queer fish, lapped clean it looks a lot less like a combo, try as I might I cant get either surface totally "Clean" looking, and its much harder than a coti or bbw, it feels almost totally smooth??? may well be an arkansas but I know nothing of them.

That one cost a whopping £3,3.52 Euro, $4.30
Do you think I was robbed??..lol

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
and a bit of a coticule Collector in the making it would seem..bwhahaha

 

[danjared]

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Do you have pictures of the second one after lapping? Did it feel oily or gunky when you got it? You could try the boiling method for cleaning it. Then what it is will be much more clear. I'd be interested in seeing pictures of it after boiling (make sure to put a towel at the bottom of the pot for the stone to rest on before boiling or you could crack it). If it's some kind of vintage Arkansas or Arkansas combo (maybe combined with a courser synthetic oilstone?), you still got at least your money's worth. I also hear that they're in high demand in Europe (novelty of having something from across the pond?). You could even measure its specific gravity after all that to see what kind of Arkansas stone it is. Basically, I'm saying that I'm interested in what it is! If you say it feels very smooth, it may in fact be a translucent Arkansas or some other kind of novaculite.

 

[sparq]

I have a washita hone that looks a bit like the second stone.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I took some pictures after lapping:





Yes it was extremely Gunky and oily, it still is oily, I tried it after finishing on coticule, and the HHT dropped off.
Water just seems to run off it, and it feels sharper on the steel than my coticules do. I will boil her up tomorrow, after all for £8 the pair it could melt like sugar and I would still be one very very happy camper :thumbup:

And I tried the Coticule, very nice as it happens, shave was good, I need a bit more time with it of course but for a first shave off a "new" hone with a "New" Razor it was GLEAMING!!!



Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[danjared]

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Very interesting. It does sound like a translucent Arkansas. If you cared enough to test, I would be interested in hearing what its specific gravity measures out to be. A translucent Arkansas, if properly lapped, can give an exceedingly fine edge. But they're slow, take much patience, and aren't as versatile as other stones (like our beloved coticule). You should check out this thread:

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[tat2Ralfy]

Thank you :thumbup:

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[danjared]

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No problem, Doc. Also, I forgot that you want to add some soap to the mix. Here's a good write-up:

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[tat2Ralfy]

Thanks again :thumbup:
I will try the little sucker again tomorrow with soap, on a razor finished on a coti, then a razor thats dilocuted up to the finishing stage and see what happens

Best wishes once again
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[mrmaroon]

If it is an Arkansas Raplf, you will have to break it in. Arkansas hones are so hard they mimic whatever you lapped them with until the novaculite wears down. My Black arkansas started at around 3-4k before getting smooth as glass. Now it is around 10-12k and slower than hell. When I use it ti finish (rarely) I expect to do anywhere from 100-300 laps. The edge it gives is great, but I don't like using the hone.

Regards
mrmaroon

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Ok heres the little one boiled in washing powder and lapped, I took a shave ready Dovo and did 30 x strokes on lather, hht was great before, and then was truly poor, ended up doing 400 laps and the best I could get was a loud violin, after stropping the hht improved dramaticly to nice 4
Under the scope the bevel looks amazing too, not a scratch, but a clean smooth surface thats just on the shiny side of matt if you know what I mean?

Anyway I will test shave tonight and see how it goes.

400 laps! Jeeez!





Many thanks
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[danjared]

That's a pretty little bugger. What did you use to lap it? It sounds like you had better luck the first time, and these things really vary a lot depending on how you lap them, so that could be why it failed the HHT. They are also extremely hard, so it's possible to chip the edge if you're not careful. I've lapped a Spyderco UF and a translucent Arkansas, and I'm still not sure which was more of a pain.

But I'm surprised you haven't given up on playing with it yet. :

 

[Smythe]

I don’t remember if I mentioned this before…
I lap those very hard stones on a ¼ inch (about 6mm) thick sheet of glass with pinch of 220grit silicon carbide powder and a sprinkle of water… makes almost any stone bleed slurry.

I would recommend this over diamond plate especially if you will lap more than a few hard stones…. But resist the temptation to lap a Coticule with it.

Silicon carbide powder can be had in a 1LB plastic bag for less than $20. It is available from 80 – 1.2k grit, but for very hard stones get 120 or 220 grit to flatten, then use 600 or 1200 to smooth...

You can get the stuff on eBay but please check the shipping charges... you may find an 8OZ bag for $6 but the shipping is $15.

 

[Bart]

I can't offer much advice, since I don't have any experience with Arkansas hones. But I looks as if you're in very good hands with the gentlemen that have replied. The gathered knowledge, on our little website here, never ceases to amaze me.
:thumbup:
I only want to suggest that you try to sweeten the lapped surface of the Arkansas with some thick BBW or Coticule slurry and vigorous rubbing with a metal piece of metal. That should create a nice polish on the surface of the Arkansas. It's a great way to smooth out the DMT-E and EE, so it could be worth a try in this situation as well.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[sparq]

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There is a cheap yet widely available alternative to silicon carbide powder - valve grinding compound with water base that can be obtained in Napa Auto Parts stores. I believe the grit is 180. A small bottle costs around $5 and will last a lifetime. You just have to be careful not to get one with vaseline base as it oils stones.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I want to thank you all for your help and advice with the little stone, it may well be an arkansas??
I shaved with a razor finished on it tonight and have to say it was crap, pulled like a train, despite the hht being not too shabby, as we speak the same razor is awaiting 30-60 on coti/water to bring the edge back to its former glory.

The stone is my honing drawer, awaiting further inclination from its coticule loving owner ..lol

Best wishes and thanks again
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[danjared]

Having lapped Arkansas stones and Spydercos, Smythe's suggestion sounds like an excellent one for getting this sucker flat. But for a translucent Arkansas (or other true hard Arkansas), I highly recommend, after lapping, polishing up in a progression up to around 1000-2000 grit (or you get bored, whichever comes first). I'm not sure how effective the garnets in coticules are, since they're pretty small (about on the order of the quartz crystals in novaculite), and I haven't found them to make a noticeable difference here. I did find diamond sprays and pastes to work very well. Maybe it's because diamonds are "teethy"; it also appears that the hardnesses of quartz and spessartine garnet are about on par whereas diamond, aluminum oxide, and silicon carbide are much harder. Also, you don't want to polish these stones too finely since you're battling between fineness and effectiveness.