HR-P1, Real or not real --- Controversial topic 18+

[Walid]

This is for hardcore Kampfe collectors so @efsk , stay the hell out of it Just kidding brother we need your output.

So, here it goes, I think the HR-P1 is fake, I hop not, but I think it's fake. I sincerely hope not.

To my knowledge there is absolutely no documentation about this. Only one person had it and it was Howard Hazelcorn, When he passed away the 2 HR-P1 got acquiered by Renzo Jardella.

No trace before Hazelcorn or where he acquired it from. We know of no other collector who has it. and 20 years later after HH book no one found one.

So how did it come up to existence?

1- A con artist sold it to a collector as a rare item
2- It was a prototype and was kept somewhere because in 1875 they knew a prototype would be a collector item, so keep it hidden for 120 years in case of.
3- Hazelcorn himself made it (it's not an accusation, so give it up) to make his collection look good and oddly enough didn't price it in the rarity chart higher than Hr-S1 and HR-S2

Let's debate

 

[efsk]

We know of exactly ONE curved Darwin. We know there’s numerous one-off Gillette. I own two razors that I’ve not been able to find any info on, or even anybody else who has one. Razors still pop up that have spent the best part of the past century on somebody’s attic and are then sold in a near NOS condition. There’s collectors dealing amongst each other that we do not even know are collectors. (Me especially, I collect longer than you yet you seem to know all collectors).
So I dare say: there’s an absolute possibility it is legit.
Another possibility: A previous owner had a new handle made to replace a damaged one, and figured to go all-out.
Also, I think we seek too much in the pricing. Can be a typo, can be pricing was adjusted but he forgot the HR-P1, …

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

Arguments against:

Making a sheet metal razor like this in an edition of 2 is expensive. Very expensive.
You have to produce the dies, which is highly labour-intensive and good luck finding someone who can still do it. That art died out quite some time ago.
Then, you'll need the machines to produce the razors from the dies. A 3D printer won't do
We are probably talking tens of thousands of any currency (except Bitcoin) as the initial cost.
After that, each razor would cost next to nothing. But tens of thousands of - probably - dollars divided by two is still a lot of money per fake razor.
I have looked into what it takes to produce my own sheet metal razors and was surprised by how low my jaw can drop. And I even looked at Chinese manufacturers.

As for the handle - why milk glass? If I would fake a prototype I'd use a wooden handle. Maybe they were special commemorative razors owned by the Kampfe brothers themselves. So, where is the third one? Maybe they were produced after Richard's death when only two brothers were left. That would solve the cost problem - they were filthy rich and could afford whatever they wanted. Pure speculation. I don't believe any of it - just a nice, completely useless mind game.

As for 'how likely is it to find such rarities' - it does happen. A few years ago someone bought a whole lot of Schick injector prototypes. Outlandish and fantastic stuff and I think I know which inventor's family they came from. And I have no doubt about their authenticity. Little details from obscure unused patents. No forger would or could go that far.
Maybe some Kampfe descendant (or someone finally buying the family mansion) found the HR-P1s in the attic. Shit like that happens.

The idea that Hazelcorn could possibly have made them himself is laughable and outlandish.

So for me, that leaves option 2 but modified. They were prototypes and they were kept somewhere for 120 years because nobody bothered to look at the stuff in the attic.

That is also speculation, like Walid's theories, but has the advantage of not needing conspiracy theories.

I really need to inspect an HR-P1 and an HR-1A next to each other with a loupe to see how good the engravings are on the HR-P1.
The images in Hazelcorn's book are just not good enough to judge this. What I can see looks OK though.

TL;DR: I'm not convinced.

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

We know of exactly ONE curved Darwin. We know there’s numerous one-off Gillette. I own two razors that I’ve not been able to find any info on, or even anybody else who has one. Razors still pop up that have spent the best part of the past century on somebody’s attic and are then sold in a near NOS condition. There’s collectors dealing amongst each other that we do not even know are collectors. (Me especially, I collect longer than you yet you seem to know all collectors).
So I dare say: there’s an absolute possibility it is legit.
Another possibility: A previous owner had a new handle made to replace a damaged one, and figured to go all-out.
Also, I think we seek too much in the pricing. Can be a typo, can be pricing was adjusted but he forgot the HR-P1, …

I know of exactly ONE Butler Safety Razor.
Now also owned by Mr Jardella.
A coincidence?
Did I fake it and then sell it to him? Intriguing...
And why didn't I swap it for the more common HR-P1??? Or an Ebor?

 

[efsk]

Did I fake it and then sell it to him? Intriguing...

I think you did. Cost you a fiver.

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

I think you did. Cost you a fiver.

So whoever faked it and sold it on eBay for a fiver was the real idiot... Got it.

 

[Walid]

I know of exactly ONE Butler Safety Razor.
Now also owned by Mr Jardella.
A coincidence?
Did I fake it and then sell it to him? Intriguing...
And why didn't I swap it for the more common HR-P1??? Or an Ebor?

Well, if you traded your Butler before 2021, the explanation is simple, he didn't have it. Hazelcorn estate came up in 2021.

I beg to differ on the creation of the razor. It could be an HR-1A with just a modified soldered top. In the book, the top seems of different type of metal. All is needed is to solder a metal sheet after a bit of working on a HR-1A, there are no complexe blade adjustments mechanisms to build like the ones that came after. That is very possible. Again, both of you have the Hazelcorn book, take a look at the picture.

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

Also, I think we seek too much in the pricing. Can be a typo, can be pricing was adjusted but he forgot the HR-P1, …

The HR-P1 first shows up in the 3rd edition.
The prices for the S1 and S2 were revised upwards from the 2nd to the 3rd edition.
So a typo is unlikely. All three got a new price in the 3rd edition. Maybe the $1200-1600 were supposed to read $1200-1800 like the two sterling silver models. Possible. We can't ask him.
Maybe Hazelcorn - without having any reference (other than the $20 he paid from whoever) - put it in the same category as the other rare razors he had an idea how to price.

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

Well, if you traded your Butler before 2021, the explanation is simple, he didn't have it. Hazelcorn estate came up in 2021.

I beg to differ on the creation of the razor. It could be an HR-1A with just a modified soldered top. In the book, the top seems of different type of metal. All is needed is to solder a metal sheet after a bit of working on a HR-1A, there are no complexe blade adjustments mechanisms to build like the ones that came after. That is very possible. Again, both of you have the Hazelcorn book, take a look at the picture.

Possible. Good point. Hard to tell without examining one. It would be difficult to do that without being obvious though.
You would have to remove the original top and somehow solder on a new top? And neither Hazelcorn nor Jardella have noticed?
Still cheaper than faking one from scratch. But - I'm still not convinced. I'm not removing it from my website just yet.

 

[Walid]

(Me especially, I collect longer than you yet you seem to know all collectors).

Here are the possibilities:

• I was faking being a Noob
• I just got lucky knowing these guys.
• Made a conscious attempt to dig them up, like I did with you.

In some auctions I lost in eBay, Sometimes I was able to find the buyer and try to make a deal with him (even though it might take me a few months)
In some auctions when I want an Item, I find the seller and contact him/her by phone. After that I get first dibs. If they sell something later on they contact me first before it reaches eBay.

Sometimes the seller is a collector and we have a chat together.

 

[Walid]

Possible. Good point. Hard to tell without examining one. It would be difficult to do that without being obvious though.
You would have to remove the original top and somehow solder on a new top? And neither Hazelcorn nor Jardella have noticed?
Still cheaper than faking one from scratch. But - I'm still not convinced. I'm not removing it from my website just yet.

Both are hardcore collectors, You won't believe the level of competition between all the collectors at that time (before 2000). So when one gets an item that he can brag about then he's more willing to believe it than you think.
I thought about inviting Renzo to the conversation but he might, probably out of pride dismiss the fake theory since he owns the razors and is the only known collector to have them. But I don't know.

 

[UnShaven]

Not enough knowledge to debat about the subject, i pass

 

[Walid]

Not enough knowledge to debat about the subject, i pass

That's why I added 18+ to the subject
@sɐǝɹpu∀ and @efsk barely qualified
So, you're in good company if you ask me.

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

Both are hardcore collectors, You won't believe the level of competition between all the collectors at that time (before 2000). So when one gets an item that he can brag about then he's more willing to believe it than you think.

What about this unique model?

Surely something to brag about. How cool is that newly discovered model?
According to Mr. Jardella - probably a home made job, if a nice one.

I thought about inviting Renzo to the conversation but he might, probably out of pride dismiss the fake theory since he owns the razors and is the only known collector to have them. But I don't know.

Or he might dismiss your 'theory' because he knows more about Kampfe Star razors than all of us combined.
Leave the man alone. He doesn't want to be on shaving forums.

 

[Walid]

Surely something to brag about. How cool is that newly discovered model?
According to Mr. Jardella - probably a home made job, if a nice one.

I knew about that model, and props to Renzo for not including it into the available Kampfe heads. But a the same time you have to admit now it's possible to fake the HR-P1. Like the model you showed, the top could easily be changed. This alone gives much more weight to my proposal. It is most likely fake and home made. At the model you showed has some art done to it. You lose Andreas.

Or he might dismiss your 'theory' because he knows more about Kampfe Star razors than all of us combined.
Leave the man alone. He doesn't want to be on shaving forums.

He definitely knows more about Kampfe than all of us. But I still will need to talk to him about it.
That was my plan all along. I just needed to see what were the counter arguments that he might bring in into the conversation. I was having this conversation with other collectors at the same time. All of you provided me with enough ammunition.

That being said, he might just stop in my tracks and say: Yeah, I think it is fake. And that conversation will be really short.

I might still try to bring him in, just to get opinion public about this and not just in a private conversation.

From what I see here, you really wanna believe...(X-files theme running in the background)

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

I was contacted by another collector to give my considered opinion on this razor:

Looks like an HR-P1 head to me.
(And yes, the gentleman in question paid $18 for it)
It was found with a Star Safety Razor labelled cardboard box, which is unusual in itself.
I think this find is rather credible.
No proper provenance other than "antiques dealer, from estate sale" - but that goes for all of my razors at least.
Mine don't normally come with paperwork either.

 

[efsk]

I find this a terrific find. I now need one.

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

I find this a terrific find. I now need one.

Renzo owns two and only I know who owns the third.
The guy hasn't asked me for a valuation yet, but I would be honest.
That would put it firmly out of my price range.
I wouldn't spend *cough* *cough* dollars on a razor.

 

[Walid]

I find this a terrific find. I now need one.

Get in line Richard, stick to slants. This stuff is mine.

 

[sɐǝɹpu∀]

Interesting question by the owner: is this too rare to shave with?
I gave him my answer, what would be yours?