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Hybrid unicot using DMT and coticule?

StraightRazorDave

Well-Known Member
Hey all,

So I was honing another razor using the unicot method, when I had a thought: Could I save some garnets and just use my DMT 1200 to set the bevel? So basically just set the bevel with the DMT then add one layer of tape? I know the idea of adding one layer of tape after setting the bevel with the coticule is to account for the rounding over of the bevel (when it's formed using the coti w/slurry), but I thought: wht wouldn't it work with a DMT?

The first step in the unicot after adding the tape is to do about 30 laps with a misty slurry, I assume to help cut the new bevel angle. But since a DMT formed bevel (formed with no tape) is not rounded over, could you also skip this step and go straight from setting the bevel with no tape to 50 laps on the coticule w/water using 1 layer of tape???

i.e.
Step 1) Set bevel using DMT 1200. Use as many laps as necessary.
Step 2) Add 1 layer of tape, and perform 50 (or so) laps on the coticule with plain water.
Step 3) Remove tape and strop.

I have NO experience with this and have not tried this, it simply came to mind right now so thought I would post before I forgot. If it works it would be a really quick way to hone a razor from start to finish (assuming to major damage). I know it wouldn't be a true unicot since it would use 2 hones, but I think I may give it a whirl.....

I will report back when I try this method out. It won't be tonight, I'm test shaving a razor that I honed using the unicot on coticule no. 20's replacement. :)
 

jfdupuis

Well-Known Member
Crazy! I was actually thinking about doing the same. I'm having some problems with a 5/8 SS Solingen and I was thinking about going that direction. Let me know how you do man!

JF
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
You will still need to go 30 laps on a light slurry to form a secondary bevel, if you go straight to water you will be trying to create a 2nd bevel and polish the edge made by the dmt at the same time, and thats gonna go slow also the 1200 scratches will take a long time to polish out, if you go onto the light slurry after adding tape it will give the edge a finer finish which will be a lot easier and faster to polish out, apart from that theres no reason i can see that it wont work, unless the dmt leaves micro chips on the edge? in which case you will have to do a bit on the coti with slurry before adding tape.

Hope that all makes sense?
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
I have a dmt its a great hone i reckon it will work as ralfy as said you will need the 30 laps on slurry the dmt 1200 leaves a choppier edge thats why if you tpt after dmt boy does it grip your thumb.
 

StraightRazorDave

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys. :thumbup:

I still think it would be faster using a DMT first even if you really can't skip the 30 laps with slurry. I know it wouldn't really be a unicot, but it would be more efficient. But there's not much love in using a DMT...so cold and heartless. :p
 

jfdupuis

Well-Known Member
Well guys, I just tried Dave's method of using the DMT 1200 followed by the coticule with light slurry and water.

Results: pretty good! Not perfect, but certainly passable. I think it might need a bit more light passes with slurry followed by water alone.

What about you Dave?
 

jfdupuis

Well-Known Member
Yes it felt pretty sharp and fairly smooth. As far as overall shave it's a bit harder to judge since I had very little stubble (shave at 4pm yesterday and it's 2:30 Pm now) I've developed some bald spots in my beard area so I now shave every day so I don't look like a complete idiot. I wonder if I should have spend a bit more time on the coticule with slurry following the DMT. I know the DMT tends to leave pretty rough marks so. What do you guys think?
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Basically, you can establish a decent bevel on whatever hone up to the job, and cut a secondary bevel with whatever hone suitable for creating a good finish. The only premise is that the secondary bevel get's beyond the scratches of the first hone.
Unicot is nothing more than that process tweaked for a Coticule with slurry for the bevel and the same stone with water for the finish, and making that procedure as fool proof as possible.

As far as the 30 laps on misty slurry are considered, they're brought in, because the Coticule/water edge is at its best when working on a "landing zone" (cut with the misty slurry). Doing more laps on water would eventually achieve the same, but it's faster to include the misty slurry step.

Depending on the properties of a particular Coticule and the level of wear on the DMT, the Coticule might even be faster. In any case I prefer a Coticule for bevel correction work. I prefer the feel of a Coticule, and the resulting bevel off it, is on with a perfect structural integrity, zero jaggedness or micro-chipping, no stresses, no deep scratches that might live through the finishing.

But if you play your cards right, the final edge of this "hybrid" Unicot, should be as good as that of a "pure" Unicot.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

jfdupuis

Well-Known Member
That makes sense Bart! What would you recommend I do next? Simply back to coticule with water or go back to a little slurry followed by water?
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
Basically, you can establish a decent bevel on whatever hone up to the job, and cut a secondary bevel with whatever hone suitable for creating a good finish. The only premise is that the secondary bevel get's beyond the scratches of the first hone.
Unicot is nothing more than that process tweaked for a Coticule with slurry for the bevel and the same stone with water for the finish, and making that procedure as fool proof as possible.

As far as the 30 laps on misty slurry are considered, they're brought in, because the Coticule/water edge is at its best when working on a "landing zone" (cut with the misty slurry). Doing more laps on water would eventually achieve the same, but it's faster to include the misty slurry step.

Depending on the properties of a particular Coticule and the level of wear on the DMT, the Coticule might even be faster. In any case I prefer a Coticule for bevel correction work. I prefer the feel of a Coticule, and the resulting bevel off it, is on with a perfect structural integrity, zero jaggedness or micro-chipping, no stresses, no deep scratches that might live through the finishing.

But if you play your cards right, the final edge of this "hybrid" Unicot, should be as good as that of a "pure" Unicot.

Kind regards,
Bart.

As said from me, I dont think you will get smoother than a coti honed unicot, I have tried other hones for correcting a bevel and nothing keeps that very edge as smooth as a coti, which means it can acually take you longer rather than saving time because you have to do extra work to get those microchips/deep scratches or whatever out.
 

rayman

Well-Known Member
It seems very reasonable to use the DMT's, especially if you have an edge that has specific issues that will take a long time to mitigate using a Coticule.

A certain percentage of the razors I see have some type of damage to the edge. Either chips, microchips, twisted edges, frowns, well you get the idea. These are better taken care of on a DMT then on my precious coticule. What I am trying to accomplish here is NOT to try and sharpen the blade at all. I want the blade prepared for my Coticule, so that it can be perfect when it is finished. When you are done with the DMT, it should have a smooth edge, with no imperfections, and the bevel angle should be set. That's it!

When I move to the DMT, and it could be my 325 or my 1200, I tape the spine only to protect it. I spray water on the DMT and then add 1 drop of dishwashing soap. Start honing. Sometimes the steel doesn't want to start cutting so you will have to apply more pressure to the blade to get that going. When I do this, I use 2 hands to ensure even pressure across the blade.

If I have to start with the 325 grit I test it the same way you would test a knife blade. I take the tip of my middle finger, don't even go there Ralfy, and barely touch it to the edge sideways. If you do this along the whole edge, you can instantly tell where you might have to work a little more. Once I have an even sharpness, I look at the edge through my 60x scope. If the edge is perfectly smooth, I move on to the 1200 grit.

At the 1200 grit level, I am looking for the same thing as the 325 but at the end of this stage I need to be cutting arm hair. I won't stop until I am. Again, at the end you must have a perfectly smooth edge and the bevel angle set.

Now is the time to move to the Coticule. Take off the tape from the spine. Consider your blade, at this point, nothing but a dull razor that you have just finished you 25th shave with and it is time to re-hone. Build a slurry on your stone and start from scratch. You can even breadknife the edge before hand if you want, but I have never had to do this and don't find it necessary.

There is something here you need to remember. When you sit down to hone a razor, the final product is based on how well you are able to use the tools you have chosen. Allowing yourself to introduce more options to your particular methods, will set you apart from those who won't. It,s not always a matter of what you have to do to get from point A to point B but rather the fact that you started at point A and finished at point B.

Good Luck

Ray
 

jfdupuis

Well-Known Member
The reason I went to the DMT (apart from reading Dave's post) is that I just could not get my SS Solingen to shave properly off the coticule with slurry. That was quickly fixed by the DMT 1200. It took me about 50 passes on the DMT and it was shaving hair all along the edge. I don't have a microscope so I can't attest to how beat up or smooth the edge was following the DMT.
 

rayman

Well-Known Member
Until you can get a 30x or 60x loop try running the blade through a cotton ball. If there are any rough spots, it will pick it up quickly. Give it a try.

Ray
 

mitchshrader

Well-Known Member
As a stone collector, even though somewhat ignorant..I am startled by the extreme concern for longevity in use of coticules. I use the BBW till I can't gain any more ground (hazy-near mirror polish) and then WASH everything, and THEN use the coticule (with a nagura) and a very generous slurry..and 'medium' thickness to the slurry.

I don't attempt to do the final finish on coticules because I have slower, finer stones than that...but if I did it would be with water and the lightest touch I could manage..'floating' the edge with near zero pressure.

You might consider a finer stone for ultimate edge refinement, should one cross your path. A shapton 15K might well accomplish the task, but I am guessing.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
mitchshrader said:
As a stone collector, even though somewhat ignorant..I am startled by the extreme concern for longevity in use of coticules. I use the BBW till I can't gain any more ground (hazy-near mirror polish) and then WASH everything, and THEN use the coticule (with a nagura) and a very generous slurry..and 'medium' thickness to the slurry.

I don't attempt to do the final finish on coticules because I have slower, finer stones than that...but if I did it would be with water and the lightest touch I could manage..'floating' the edge with near zero pressure.

You might consider a finer stone for ultimate edge refinement, should one cross your path. A shapton 15K might well accomplish the task, but I am guessing.

A shapton 15K or the 16K variant on glass, is a highly praised finisher. But not better than a Coticule. The difference between sharpening on a Coticule with slurry and finishing on water only, is night and day. Slurry moves steel fast, but also affects the very bevel tip, and thus prevents the edge from taking peak sharpness. With water, the garnets remain embedded in the hone's surface. That solves the "slurry-dulling" issue, but renders the hone muchslower. For that reason a Coticule is both a decent bevel worker (on slurry) and a top finisher (on water). It's bridging a certain keenness gap between those 2 uses that's the challenging part.
There's a lot of information about this in the Faq.
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Kind regards,
Bart.
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
A shapton 15K or the 16K variant on glass, is a highly praised finisher. But not better than a Coticule. The difference between sharpening on a Coticule with slurry and finishing on water only, is night and day. Slurry moves steel fast, but also affects the very bevel tip, and thus prevents the edge from taking peak sharpness. With water, the garnets remain embedded in the hone's surface. That solves the "slurry-dulling" issue, but renders the hone muchslower. For that reason a Coticule is both a decent bevel worker (on slurry) and a top finisher (on water). It's bridging a certain keenness gap between those 2 uses that's the challenging part.
There's a lot of information about this in the Faq.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Kind regards,
Bart.

I've got Shapton 16k and 30k stones. I concur with your statement. Coticules in the right hands are quite good. If anyone doubts this, I'd be happy to hone a razor for them with mine. However, Bart's free honing service is likely a better deal:p
 
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