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kanayama strop.....the next
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TM280
Well-Known Member
Hi,
The linen is stiff with a coarse weave. Many tend not to use it, preferring other linens, myself included. But, I want to do some testing (of a possibly destructive nature
) on mine... If you were to buy a Kanayama (excellent strops in any case) and didn't like the linen, I would be willing to trade you the linen for a supple, hand finished linen component.
regards,
Torolf
The linen is stiff with a coarse weave. Many tend not to use it, preferring other linens, myself included. But, I want to do some testing (of a possibly destructive nature
) on mine... If you were to buy a Kanayama (excellent strops in any case) and didn't like the linen, I would be willing to trade you the linen for a supple, hand finished linen component. regards,
Torolf
JimR
Well-Known Member
I guess I have tested mine in the long term, in that it is the only linen I have used for nearly 2 years. It works fine. It is, in fact, a really good linen. More people have complimented the linen than have said anything negative about it.
I think the reason some people seem hesitant to use it is because it is different, and it makes them nervous. Trust me, the stiffness of the linen is not an accident, and it will never, ever hurt your razor (if used properly). If used properly, I honestly believe the linen will help preserve your edges.
I think the reason some people seem hesitant to use it is because it is different, and it makes them nervous. Trust me, the stiffness of the linen is not an accident, and it will never, ever hurt your razor (if used properly). If used properly, I honestly believe the linen will help preserve your edges.
Bart
Well-Known Member
JimR said:
Hmm. Jim, with all due respect, and without any of what I'm about to write must be taken personal, there is a certain kind of no-nonsensical atmosphere on The Cafeteria, that I am going to honor in this post.
Most guys I know that have used the Kananyama strop are all fairly experienced. I think that is only normal: a starting shaver will not easily spend that kind of money for a strop that he's likely to mar with his still underdeveloped stropping skils.
Those seasoned fellows have all more or less made the same statement: high praise for the leather componenet(s) and the craftsmanship, and a special recommendation for the great services of the seller (that would be you, my friend).
But at the same time, all of these fellows that I know off have been far less enthusiastic about the linen, and I don't think that is because they were "nervous" about it, as you suggested, nor do I believe these gents were prepared to give up on that linen so easily. After all, we're talking about the strop that has the reputation to be the best in the world.
Personally, I have seen and briefly used Gary's Kanayama strop, an even with such a limited trial, I could tell that the linen differs a lot form those found on other high-end strops. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe it just has a different function. Or it has to be used completely different that the typical Western linen component. Either way:
is far to vague, coming from the seller of the strops and the guy who has direct access to the maker.JimR said:
I think a lot of people need information on what the "word" properly means in the quoted sentence above.
We have Chris sanding his, Torolf wanting to do tests of possible destructive nature, and Gary being, as always, kindly stating that he doesn't really figure his one out. That tells me there is something not quite right with the linen component of the Kanayama strop, or something lacking in the instructions for use.
Let's stop beating around that bush, shall we?
Kind regards,
Bart.
garyhaywood
Well-Known Member
I have the trio model. the leather is my all time favourite. The linen is not frightening for me to use, but realy it does feel nor sound good . it just does'nt rock my boat. my honing is done on coticule as you no.i need a fabrice that will bring the edge up after coticule. I have compared k linen tm linen and dovo, both dovo and tm linen i saw massive hht results. K linen non at all. I tested by shaving of k linen> i tested of tm linen there was a big differance the shave was easily better for me of tm,dovo linen. i am going to test this again. i actauly spoke to raspur who sell these strops . he say linen does nothing and he has taken it of his strop and uses leather only.
This my exeriance. I still intend to use the k linen at some point as i need to give a real go.
gary
This my exeriance. I still intend to use the k linen at some point as i need to give a real go.
gary
mhnnnnnnnnnn...the linen/canvas is so fundamental??.....i ve tested some shave with and without (livi loom strop) with good stropping techinque and about 80 laps on a good leather, and final 20 on palm of my hand, the shave is a really heavenly....i have HHT4-5 with ONLY this leather......i generally arrive after the coticule with hht 3-4
why for the japanese is not fundamental if it is increase the sharpness ?
but i trust you, bart and gary.....i'll make some new test...
why for the japanese is not fundamental if it is increase the sharpness ?
but i trust you, bart and gary.....i'll make some new test...
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
I love my Kanayama leather. Even though I only have the ... (can't remember the number), but it was the cheapest of the lot. It was still up there in price with the other well known, highly reputable strops. I was never happy with my TM leather, though the linen component is the most effective of the few I've tried.
Torolf's made some excellent points about the psychology of stropping that really rang true with me, but that aside, the round of testing I did with mine side by side with my TM linen showed that it wasn't as effective in raising the HHt results.
The leather alone is worth the price of admission, and i have a feeling that the three part strop may be more effective than the two part system. I've found that the leather alone isn't enough to raise the HHT from that left by the linen without an intermediate step, which is probably where the suede type leather comes in.
Eventually, I plan to piece together a strop system that incorporates the best of what I have. It will include my Kanayama Leather, probably Torolf's linen/hemp component (pending testing), and my Bear-hide strop.
Gone will be the K linen, the TM leather and the vintage shell and linen. And the CrOx treated paddle.
Torolf's made some excellent points about the psychology of stropping that really rang true with me, but that aside, the round of testing I did with mine side by side with my TM linen showed that it wasn't as effective in raising the HHt results.
The leather alone is worth the price of admission, and i have a feeling that the three part strop may be more effective than the two part system. I've found that the leather alone isn't enough to raise the HHT from that left by the linen without an intermediate step, which is probably where the suede type leather comes in.
Eventually, I plan to piece together a strop system that incorporates the best of what I have. It will include my Kanayama Leather, probably Torolf's linen/hemp component (pending testing), and my Bear-hide strop.
Gone will be the K linen, the TM leather and the vintage shell and linen. And the CrOx treated paddle.
JimR
Well-Known Member
Exactly, Bart: Gary, Chris and Torolf. Three people. I've seen maybe three comments on SRP. So six. If other people aren't saying anything, then it must not be too bad, so I'm going to stick to that number.
I've had more than three times that number buy the linen alone, and they had nothing but praise.
I've had a few others who have been straight shaving for more than a decade telling me it's the best linen they've used.
When there are more people complimenting something than complaining, and when the people complaining have never said anything more than "I don't like it." then I have to believe it's a matter of taste, rather than of quality. No beating around the bush. Just what I see to be true. So Torolf's definition of "many" is three...mine is a bit higher.
As for "proper use", that's what is known as "covering my ass." What I mean is just this: using it like a strop should be used. 20 or so laps with little or no pressure (if you use pressure, make sure it's in the spine not toward the edge). I'm not trying to be sneaky, Bart. Just saying, if you strop at a 45 degree angle your edge is not going to be preserved. Trust me, I've heard this before...
I've had more than three times that number buy the linen alone, and they had nothing but praise.
I've had a few others who have been straight shaving for more than a decade telling me it's the best linen they've used.
When there are more people complimenting something than complaining, and when the people complaining have never said anything more than "I don't like it." then I have to believe it's a matter of taste, rather than of quality. No beating around the bush. Just what I see to be true. So Torolf's definition of "many" is three...mine is a bit higher.
As for "proper use", that's what is known as "covering my ass." What I mean is just this: using it like a strop should be used. 20 or so laps with little or no pressure (if you use pressure, make sure it's in the spine not toward the edge). I'm not trying to be sneaky, Bart. Just saying, if you strop at a 45 degree angle your edge is not going to be preserved. Trust me, I've heard this before...
danjared
Well-Known Member
I don't dislike my Kanayama linen (and am one of those people who bought just the linen, although I mainly did so because it was the easiest way at the time to get a 2.5" wide linen and strop hanger). That said, I like my TM linen slightly more, but I definitely don't see any adverse effects using the Kanayama linen. It's mainly that I like the feel of the TM linen more since using it doesn't make it sound like I'm doing poi in the closet.
Edit: I should note that the only cloth strops I've used are TM linen, TM cotton and Kanayama linen.
Edit: I should note that the only cloth strops I've used are TM linen, TM cotton and Kanayama linen.
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
Well, I find my Kanayama linen to be most like the vintage linens I've seen. It got the weight and body of those old ones that is lacking in the newer products. Not to say I dislike it, but the vibrations it sent out I could feel in my teeth. For me the points Torolf brought up in regards to the psychological aspect of stropping probably are one of the biggest factors. Much the same held true for the nylon component of the Vintage Blades strop I gave away... it comes down to the tactile sensations, and the perceptions of the user. Though I do stand by the test results I had that showed an apparent drop in HHT results.
If anyone is interested I'd be willing to loan my linen component out for testing by one of our brethren here more experienced than I. No way will I permanently part with it though.
If anyone is interested I'd be willing to loan my linen component out for testing by one of our brethren here more experienced than I. No way will I permanently part with it though.
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
Hi Jim,
I had to go grab a razor and do a few test passes... trying to replicate by feel the same pressure as is typical for me, it reads in the 10 to15 g range on my cheap kitchen scale. ( Just a micky mouse kinda test but it's hard to convey that type of thing else ways). I pull the strop quite tight ( as a bald-ass guess, i'd say in the range of applying about 10 + lbs of pull,) and the strop deflects considerably less than a centimeter with a pass (eye-balled).
back and forth from the computer to the strop
I've tried all kinds of pressure just now, hard and loose, hard with a hard pull, light and loose, light with a hard pull, hard pull and typical pressure (trust me, I'm not above re-examining my stropping technique) and I get a very zippy type of noise and a definate vibration I can feel in the bones of my left hand and in my back teeth. It's more pronounced in one direction over the other. As a side note, I tried turning around and holding the strop so i was approaching it from the opposite end, and it seems obvious that particular phenomenon is just a function of the weave. (and not really a concern to me in any way)
There is also a huge difference in the vibrations created in direct correlation to the grind of the razor. My giant meat-chopper is dead silent, with almost no noise or vibration, and my most hollow razor, a Dovo Blackstar, is so loud it can be heard in the living room, and generates the most uncomfortable vibrations.
It does feel remarkably similar to the vintage linen I have, the difference in my mind being simply that the K hasn't had the use the vintage linen has had, so the sensation and sound from the vintage is much more muted. It makes me think that the issue i have with my Kanayama are a function of my own ... what's the word? not prejudices , but early experience with the V Blades and TM have predisposed me a certain way. I guess I keep repeating that similarity, because that seems like a very important point to me, and I'm fascinated by the pontetial of that... It's what makes me contemplate the old idea of sanding and treatments. A lot of old strops are treated with all kinds of gunk; waxes, soaps, pastes, sandings, and none of those seem suitable with the single light layers of linen like the TM. Those other types of strops like the Kanayama, and i hope Torolf's strops that are due to arrive shortly, are meaty, with lots of material to work with, a good medium to work with, so to speak.
Sorry Jim... probably much more answer than you were expecting.... I have a very boring job... so I think about this shit all day long.... It good to get it out!
Kind regards,
-Chris
I had to go grab a razor and do a few test passes... trying to replicate by feel the same pressure as is typical for me, it reads in the 10 to15 g range on my cheap kitchen scale. ( Just a micky mouse kinda test but it's hard to convey that type of thing else ways). I pull the strop quite tight ( as a bald-ass guess, i'd say in the range of applying about 10 + lbs of pull,) and the strop deflects considerably less than a centimeter with a pass (eye-balled).
back and forth from the computer to the strop
I've tried all kinds of pressure just now, hard and loose, hard with a hard pull, light and loose, light with a hard pull, hard pull and typical pressure (trust me, I'm not above re-examining my stropping technique) and I get a very zippy type of noise and a definate vibration I can feel in the bones of my left hand and in my back teeth. It's more pronounced in one direction over the other. As a side note, I tried turning around and holding the strop so i was approaching it from the opposite end, and it seems obvious that particular phenomenon is just a function of the weave. (and not really a concern to me in any way)
There is also a huge difference in the vibrations created in direct correlation to the grind of the razor. My giant meat-chopper is dead silent, with almost no noise or vibration, and my most hollow razor, a Dovo Blackstar, is so loud it can be heard in the living room, and generates the most uncomfortable vibrations.
It does feel remarkably similar to the vintage linen I have, the difference in my mind being simply that the K hasn't had the use the vintage linen has had, so the sensation and sound from the vintage is much more muted. It makes me think that the issue i have with my Kanayama are a function of my own ... what's the word? not prejudices , but early experience with the V Blades and TM have predisposed me a certain way. I guess I keep repeating that similarity, because that seems like a very important point to me, and I'm fascinated by the pontetial of that... It's what makes me contemplate the old idea of sanding and treatments. A lot of old strops are treated with all kinds of gunk; waxes, soaps, pastes, sandings, and none of those seem suitable with the single light layers of linen like the TM. Those other types of strops like the Kanayama, and i hope Torolf's strops that are due to arrive shortly, are meaty, with lots of material to work with, a good medium to work with, so to speak.
Sorry Jim... probably much more answer than you were expecting.... I have a very boring job... so I think about this shit all day long....
It good to get it out!Kind regards,
-Chris
mhnnnnnnn i m studying philosophy at university, but here, we need to a real EMPIRICAL DATA. the problem i think is fairly easy.
take the razor pass it on the linen and..........the kanayama linen improve the hht?
after that strop and shave and...........what abouth smoothness?? the coarse weave of the linen dullen the edge??
perfect, personally, i don't use the linen because don't have on the livi loom strop, (for test i use the back side non pasted )
i pass the razor for 80 laps on the loom leather strop (loose setting is the best for the smoothness) and the shave is superb..generally hht4/5 always.
but i m interested to this new component of the strop....but personally i don't think as a "miracolous" solution....because the final target is the SHAVE and this is awesome and smooth without the linen!
take the razor pass it on the linen and..........the kanayama linen improve the hht?
after that strop and shave and...........what abouth smoothness?? the coarse weave of the linen dullen the edge??
perfect, personally, i don't use the linen because don't have on the livi loom strop, (for test i use the back side non pasted
)i pass the razor for 80 laps on the loom leather strop (loose setting is the best for the smoothness) and the shave is superb..generally hht4/5 always.
but i m interested to this new component of the strop....but personally i don't think as a "miracolous" solution....because the final target is the SHAVE and this is awesome and smooth without the linen!
king
Well-Known Member
I use Kanayama strops more than a year now. In first I have Kanayama #30000 and now I have #80000 which have additional thick leather side (it is used as an intermediate between linen and fine leather side).
For Kanayama linen I can say that is little bit different from other strop linen sides (for example Dovo and Illinois). There is much more noise from Kanayama linen and stroping feel is different but I do not have issues of dulling edge by stroping on Kanayama linen. In my oppinion Kanayama linen needs some time to break in (in the begining it is little bit stiff but with use it becomes softer and gives real pleasure in use).
For Kanayama linen I can say that is little bit different from other strop linen sides (for example Dovo and Illinois). There is much more noise from Kanayama linen and stroping feel is different but I do not have issues of dulling edge by stroping on Kanayama linen. In my oppinion Kanayama linen needs some time to break in (in the begining it is little bit stiff but with use it becomes softer and gives real pleasure in use).
TM280
Well-Known Member
Hi Jim,
My comments were not intended to disparage the Kanayama strop or your experiences with selling them. My use of the word "many" is a general term, not a statistical reference to the set of all purchasers of this strop.
Given the frequent (true or hyperbole? I don't know) mentioning of the phenomenon that people look at these strops instead of using them and the comments about having to get used to the linen, I will stand by my own impressions from reading the forums. Of course, not as knowledgeable as your experience.
Also, Lynn mentions that he finds his leather components "coming along" regarding draw. Clearly he is using his strops differently, and has different expectations, than I do (his preference for latigo, for example). This can also be said for the linen component and its various users (by the way, is this webbing hemp? "zukku" being a general term not directly correlated to "flax"). I, for example, cannot use the Kanayama linen in the way I prefer, many strokes with pressure or with varying slack. If breaking in is needed, then my intentions can be read as an attempt to find a process to do so.
I try not to post negative experiences, I usually don't care enough to argue online. As a part time craftsman with a textile background, I find that in the recent Kanayama thread elsewhere there seems to be a high "emperor's new clothes" factor in play. My own experience doesn't support the claims of overall exclusivity. I have two vintage Japanese strops (Jatco, perhaps a forerunner to Kanayama since one is "Llama brand"?) which I use daily. They are obviously of a similar tanning and finishing method as the Kanayama, but have soft cotton fabric components. In comparison to the Kanayama 50 000 I purchased from Gary, they are of a much higher quality workmanship. Therefore, I assume that the one I have is a "Monday" product since no one else mentions mis-cut edges and roughly abraded corners. I have not yet re-cut the strop but will have to since the edges interfere with stropping.
Nonetheless, one will notice that I recommend the Kanayama strop. My interest in posting originally was to offer an alternative to someone if it turned out he was not satisfied (as well as provide myself an alternative in case I ruin my Kanayama linen ).
regards,
Torolf
My comments were not intended to disparage the Kanayama strop or your experiences with selling them. My use of the word "many" is a general term, not a statistical reference to the set of all purchasers of this strop.
Given the frequent (true or hyperbole? I don't know) mentioning of the phenomenon that people look at these strops instead of using them and the comments about having to get used to the linen, I will stand by my own impressions from reading the forums. Of course, not as knowledgeable as your experience.
Also, Lynn mentions that he finds his leather components "coming along" regarding draw. Clearly he is using his strops differently, and has different expectations, than I do (his preference for latigo, for example). This can also be said for the linen component and its various users (by the way, is this webbing hemp? "zukku" being a general term not directly correlated to "flax"). I, for example, cannot use the Kanayama linen in the way I prefer, many strokes with pressure or with varying slack. If breaking in is needed, then my intentions can be read as an attempt to find a process to do so.
I try not to post negative experiences, I usually don't care enough to argue online. As a part time craftsman with a textile background, I find that in the recent Kanayama thread elsewhere there seems to be a high "emperor's new clothes" factor in play. My own experience doesn't support the claims of overall exclusivity. I have two vintage Japanese strops (Jatco, perhaps a forerunner to Kanayama since one is "Llama brand"?) which I use daily. They are obviously of a similar tanning and finishing method as the Kanayama, but have soft cotton fabric components. In comparison to the Kanayama 50 000 I purchased from Gary, they are of a much higher quality workmanship. Therefore, I assume that the one I have is a "Monday" product since no one else mentions mis-cut edges and roughly abraded corners. I have not yet re-cut the strop but will have to since the edges interfere with stropping.
Nonetheless, one will notice that I recommend the Kanayama strop. My interest in posting originally was to offer an alternative to someone if it turned out he was not satisfied (as well as provide myself an alternative in case I ruin my Kanayama linen
). regards,
Torolf
Bart
Well-Known Member
JimR said:
TM280 said:
My favorite short tale by H.C Anndersen. :thumbup: And very applicable to most gear driven internet forums.
I have never read any statements that the Kanayama linen is doing harm. But here on Coticule.be, where linen stropping is advocated as an important step after honing a razor on a Coticule, the expected standard for a "linen" component is rather high. Having spent a quarter of a months wages may help to like a strop if the expectation is that the linen component must properly dry the edge and clean it from dried lather residue. But if the premise is that it must condition a freshly honed Coticule edge by improving the results of prevalent HHT (on this website), that can't be met with a mere self-fulfilling prophecy.
Now. I'm not saying that the Kanayama linen is merely a self-fulfilling prophecy. But it has become obvious to me that experienced guys do have problems with getting the performance from it they are used to getting of more supple linen strops. You, Jim, are the seller of this product. Dismissing the above mentioned notion with "Most of my SRP customers are happy", is not going to improve the results these guys are getting.
I personally am leaning towards the idea that the Kanayama takes a different approach.
If I own something I can't get to work as well as I expected, I would rather expect help from the seller than a dismissal.
JimR said:
What you say about the "complainers", as you call them, not being specific about their reservations, is not true.
Here's a quote by Gary in another thread. I took the liberty of putting something in bold and adding a capital here and there... I hope Gary won't mind.
garyhaywood said:
I met a man two days ago who shaves off a pasted strop: no linen, no clean leather. I don't doubt for one second that it works for him and could probably work for any other person. But that is besides the point. There are people shaving with a cartridge razor. They don't require any strops, pastes or sharpening stones. It's all a matter of chosen paradigm. I like to get by with a natural Belgian rock, a strap of cloth and the strap of leather. It's a choice. The question remains how the strop of cloth we're discussing right now can be put to meaningful use in that paradigm.stalker said:
Kind regards,
Bart.
DJKELLY
Well-Known Member
JimR said:
I, too, have the Kanayama 10k and 50k and believe the two linen components are the same. Jim, if you are not feeling the vibrations that Chris speaks about, your linen must be very well broken in, indeed, and MUCH different from mine. If it added a boost in hht I would use it in spite of the rough, vibrating feel it gives, but I get great results from other strops with much nicer tactile feedback. Give us your results in hht improvement, etc.
To whoever said that leather is all you need, I agree that may be correct, but hard on your leather as the canvas/linen cleans the surface of honing debris. It might not take but just a few laps to do this, but I am convinced that honing debris, soap or oil are almost always present on the blade prior to stropping. All would be detrimental to leather in the long term.
Regards, Dennis
JimR
Well-Known Member
Well, at this point I can't really say anything about the effects of the linen on the coticule honing, because I've not reached a point where I'm confident discussing anything about coticule honing.
Whenever I hone a razor, if I'm not getting the AHT (arm hair test) results I like, I know I have two choices: I can hone until I get there, or I can strop. Without fail, if I strop (on Kanayama linen), the AHT improves. I posted about this on my blog not too long ago. However, while the AHT always improves, the SHAVE does not. The shave test, again so far without fail, tells me that I need to hone until the AHT is a success. Clearly coticule honing and Japanese honing must be different somehow.
So without mastery of the coticule process I can't tell you anything about the way to use Kanayama linen so that it works in the process you guys have developed. SO perhaps the Kanayama is not suited for coticule honing. I'm sorry about that.
Here's what I can do. Bart, I don't think I have your mailing address, please could you email it to me? I've got a package I'd like to send you.
Torolf, I never heard ANYTHING about the strop Gary having any defects until long after he sold it. If he had told me, he would have received both my and the maker's heartfelt apologies and a new strop. Mistakes do happen, but I should have caught that before it went out and I am sorry.
Whenever I hone a razor, if I'm not getting the AHT (arm hair test) results I like, I know I have two choices: I can hone until I get there, or I can strop. Without fail, if I strop (on Kanayama linen), the AHT improves. I posted about this on my blog not too long ago. However, while the AHT always improves, the SHAVE does not. The shave test, again so far without fail, tells me that I need to hone until the AHT is a success. Clearly coticule honing and Japanese honing must be different somehow.
So without mastery of the coticule process I can't tell you anything about the way to use Kanayama linen so that it works in the process you guys have developed. SO perhaps the Kanayama is not suited for coticule honing. I'm sorry about that.
Here's what I can do. Bart, I don't think I have your mailing address, please could you email it to me? I've got a package I'd like to send you.
Torolf, I never heard ANYTHING about the strop Gary having any defects until long after he sold it. If he had told me, he would have received both my and the maker's heartfelt apologies and a new strop. Mistakes do happen, but I should have caught that before it went out and I am sorry.