Managing Expectations

[decraew]

In general I'm ok with the way razors, brushes, strops etc. come, if only because pretreatments would increase the price. However, it should be made clear to the buyer what he's getting.

 

[Bart]

For me, this topic extents much farther than just shaving gear. The fact that we're even having this conversation proofs enough that there is something going on with our world. If you read the booklet by Charles Gaspard about Coticules, you'll see that there originally where 2 more steps involved for refining the surface of a Coticule. They used a coarse lapidary machine (as they do today), a fine lapidary machine that used a special finely grained sand, and finally a session of hand rubbing the surface (with a Veine Lorraine stone). They don't do it anymore, because people don't want to pay 30€ extra. I think the same can be said for a state of the art sharpening of new razors, beveled cuts on strops, solid wooden furniture,... Take a walk through the countryside and admire old iron fences, all without exception equipped with forged ornaments. Watch the most modest houses that are older than WWII, and you'll find several artifactual details made by craftsmen that took pride in their professions. It's all gone. And it makes me sad at times.
People make the excuses that labor has become to expensive. But has it? Our ancestors earned less an hour, yes! But they also had less money to spend. They didn't waste it on stuff that lost its value quicker than I can type this rant. They didn't buy stuff is made, I repeat: that is made to throw away. Neither did they lived in times that ran so fast there was no time to spend attention on quality. Today, we only have time for quantity. We can't spend 30€ on details, because we rather spend it on more stuff we don't really need.

And that's why we see a level of detail and craftsmanship on vintage items that we don't see on recent production. And why the master-artisan is a kind facing extinction.

Kind regards,
Bart

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I couldn't agree more Sir Bart :thumbup:

Again nothing to do with shaving, however I always have taken great pride in the fact that my handmade tattooing Machines are made with as much skill as I can muster, and I feel like I am cheating when I haven't made 90% of its component parts by my own hand.

Regards
Ralfson

 

[Emmanuel]

Because ,Bart, to day if someone has to placed new railings for his house 1) he not find blacksmith to create some artistic and 2) if yes ,prefers to buy industrial and cheap and the rest of the money to spend for a new computer ,because is not covered by this one had bought a year ago.
Best regards
Emmanuel

 

[Paul]

Oh, Bart is getting all deep on us now

I agree. I think about those things all the time. What's funny is that the details can be duplicated with significantly less labor than they used to, but the cost is astronomically higher.

Ralfy, I told you that I'm waiting on one of those machines so I can start scratching on the side in my kitchen

 

[Bart]

but the cost is astronomically higher.

That is what I thought too, for a long time, but I've changed my mind about that a while ago, when I saw a comparative table of what the average family in 1900 spent its income on and what the average family today spends it on. I read it in a historical magazine I needed to edit for work, but the situation didn't differ much from what you can read about the US situation for 2 cities, in this PDF: http://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/report991.pdf. The graphs that show the part of the income spend on non-necessities are most revealing. We rather spend our money on loads of hastily produced stuff, than to spend it on fewer high quality items. As a result, high quality doesn't even exsist any more in particular cases. And it's not improving. Manufacturers keep lowering their -what's it called? -"Mean time before failure". Those that don't follow are competed out of business. And all because we stopped honoring quality.
And we send ship loads of our prematurely worn junk to what we comfortably call "developing countries", while we don't give a fuck about our world's diminishing resources. Because that would require us to stop doing what we do. We've yanked out the engine of necessity from the Economy and replaced it with the engine of greed. Every year, you guys in the States and we guys in Europe must buy more stuff than the year before. Fail to do that, and the Machine stalls. They had to convince the average Joe in the US to spend money he doesn't have, and never will have, to buy all the crap that feeds the Machine. The western world is still recovering from when that bubble bursted, and they'll already pumping it up again as if nothing ever happened.

I fail to see why. Have we become so much happier then, than our grandfathers, who didn't spend most of their income on non-necessities?

So far, my annual sermon. As you were now.:

Bart

 

[Drybonz]

I fail to see why. Have we become so much happier then, than our grandfathers, who didn't spend most of their income on non-necessities?

I think it's because we have been trained to live this way. As someone who grew up in the 80's, I saw the explosion of the mass produced, disposable lifestyle. I learned that if I needed something, it came in a package... and that if it broke, it was re-purchased.

It has taken me a lot of effort to unlearn some of this behavior. Experiences such as building and planting my own herb garden, and cooking with the herbs... or restoring, honing and shaving with an old straight razor, etc have been some of the most satisfying of my life. It takes a certain amount of effort on each individual's part to break out of the way we have been trained to live for the past 30+ years.

 

[Toff]

As you may know, I am considered a bit of a cheapskate. I do not mind that. It is not that I won't pay what I feel is a good fair price, but I do look for bargains. I come from an area of the USA which is known for non-craft support. That is to say that most folks see something they like and say "Don't buy that, maw, I can make one fer a few bucks" and does.
So, with that said:

Let me say that I believe everyone should have the products they are willing to pay good money for and those products should be warranted to be at some level of quality.**.

Razors: Should they come with a shave ready edge? For a newb, It would be nice if the razor met a fair test eg HHT 3 with only Morgan Mares' tail hairs used. Then a person would be able to decide what to do with that edge to make it shave ready for that person.

Should it cost extra to have such? If it cost additional but was warranted to be at HHT3 Then the price would be stated and paid.

Brush: Should they come fully bloomed? Should a boar brush come already broken in? I didn't even know what a bloom was!, It still doesn't make a bit of difference.. again I make them myself. My simple $8US boar brushes, while cheap, did not have any small when wet. The fan boy high priced soap that a friend gave me stunk!

Strops: Should they require any treatment prior to being serviceable? How much is acceptable?
Again, every person wants differing qualities in their equipment.Why should I be any different. I bought a loaded felt strop. Bad idea, it scratched a razor I really liked to shave with.

Hones: Should they come fully lapped and ready to hone a razor?
Again, I am a do it myself and redo it myself. I do expect a hone to be flat and of good materials. I have had certain man made hones which did not perform after lapping. They had a thin skin over a coarser grit and were ruined before being flat enough for use. They were returned! I am a machinist and the meaning of flat is a lot different to me than most folks. Try wavelengths of light as planar measurement.

Soaps and Creams: Anything besides performance?
For me cheap and giving a good shave is important. A friend makes soaps so I do get some fancies. I can go to a fancy craft store and find many differing soap bases and add whatever ingredients I wish for body, water retention, and scent. why should I pay a huge amount for a fan boy soap that gave my boar brush a bad smell? I can buy a usable Glycerin soap at 2 for $4US and I may add a couple drops of glycerin to that.

**Warranted. In the British terminology. The product/device/thing must meet all stated in writing lists of qualities.

So as you may be able to understand, I am probably not the person to ask about the quality expectations for buying new products.:
Respectfully
~Richard

 

[Matt]

Fantastic write-ups, Bart. You put in words how I feel very well. Yesterday we watched Sam Mendes's "Road to Perdition" with Anna; the film takes place during prohibition in U.S. I made a remark that these were the good times, people took great care to how they were dressing, things were looking so much better than today, things were carefully crafted (men were shaving with straight razors, of course), and so on and so on. She could hardly understand this longing. Too often I get the feeling of being born several decades too late.

regards,
Matt

 

[decraew]

I think, Bart, that on this forum most if not all people will agree with you.

The durability aspect of straight razor shaving is one of the most important aspects that got me into this hobby.

 

[vgeorge]

Pardon me, Paul - these might be the wrong notes here.

With respect to nostalgia, let me say that I love vintage and historic things as much as the next guy, although I may be cheaper than Richard in my way of collecting them . :

However, ... I am really emphatic about this - I am unwilling to go back to horse buggies, ship travels, cholera, high infant mortality rates, etc. Although I do not need Mercedes S666 (I just made the number up) like Robin, but I embrace the modern - not everything, but a lot - with gusto. I do also think the cleverness of the modern artisan is same or higher - they are producing different things - like cell phone apps and scar-tissue-free plastic surgery, and the like. Unfortunately, there is a price of this progress. Each of us has make our own separate balancing act between past and the present. I have a nephew who offered couple of years ago to wash my car every Sat for an year for an iPod. I offered to give him another MP3 player for free, if only he will finish his homework for the weekend on Sat itself. He refused.

Which brings me to Paul's question. I think it is always a funny dance between a product/service provider and the buyer. Everybody would prefer tomatoes that taste and smell like tomatoes, right? Then how will you explain the tasteless, smell-less, reddish ball-like vegetable in almost all supermarkets in America? If I had to explain, I will say the following - because most people would not want to pay little extra for the aromatic, tasteful tomatoes - that is why!. And, therefore, suppliers could make a few pennies and survive by providing the tasteless, odorless junk. If you wanted good tomatoes, what can you do? Pay through your nose and buy some from gourmet stores, or farm your own. Not really good options for most people. (By the way, our great artisan ancestors too have had to make these types of choices, but about different matters.)

That was a 'bad' example. There are good examples too. I live near Boston. I probably spend as much on health care as anybody else anywhere else in America. Let me tell you, I have lived in other parts of the country. I can tell you categorically that I get significantly higher value for my health care money in Boston than in other places. Why is that? Highly evolved and competitive medical entities and infrastructure! But, tomatoes too have cut-throat competition and cannot be much more 'evolved' - but that has not helped in bringing to market the best tomatoes.

If you respond to this, please don't give me explanations based on your political ideology - let me preempt you by saying politics has little to do with this phenomenon.

Let me repeat. The dance between the buyers and sellers is complicated. In general, if there are lots of buyers, they do not have much power individually. You'd think, if there are lots of sellers you might get a break. Not always true - America has the largest number of lawyers currently than it has had cumulatively until few years ago. You'd think you can get a lawyer at a reasonable price to fight that speeding ticket? Guess again.

So, what about managing expectations? (1) We can write and rail till the cows come home, but the market will evolve on its own - imagine what it would take to influence the fast food industry (2) If the expectations are not being met, there might be an entrepreneurial opportunity there, but one will never know until one tries it.

 

[TM280]

If you respond to this, please don't give me explanations based on your political ideology - let me preempt you by saying politics has little to do with this phenomenon.


So, what about managing expectations? (1) We can write and rail till the cows come home, but the market will evolve on its own -

Umm..., market forces and the discussions that surround them are political...

Unless one truly believes that there are invisible hands moving things around, it is obvious that it is the actions of people which develop markets (their beliefs, abilities, and power), abstract concepts do not act all by themselves.

Re: tomatoes, as an example, we can't ignore a couple hundred years of coordinated governmental and industrial action guiding those tasteless red spheres towards our tables. In isolation, it is not very accurate to speak of what one is willing to pay as a market generator. The "race to the bottom" has little to do with consumer power, rather social apathy.

regards,
Torolf

 

[Bart]

With respect to nostalgia, let me say that I love vintage and historic things as much as the next guy, although I may be cheaper than Richard in my way of collecting them . :

However, ... I am really emphatic about this - I am unwilling to go back to horse buggies, ship travels, cholera, high infant mortality rates, etc. Although I do not need Mercedes S666 (I just made the number up) like Robin, but I embrace the modern - not everything, but a lot - with gusto. I do also think the cleverness of the modern artisan is same or higher - they are producing different things - like cell phone apps and scar-tissue-free plastic surgery, and the like. Unfortunately, there is a price of this progress. Each of us has make our own separate balancing act between past and the present. I have a nephew who offered couple of years ago to wash my car every Sat for an year for an iPod. I offered to give him another MP3 player for free, if only he will finish his homework for the weekend on Sat itself. He refused.

I am not a nostalgic for the sake of it. But I like to believe that history can teach us things. In that respect, I don't think that our ancestors' attention for detail had any connection with high infant mortality rate . I don't think western decadency can be explained as a "price for progress". In history, decadency without exception predicts decay.


Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Paul]

I read it in a historical magazine I needed to edit for work, but the situation didn't differ much from what you can read about the US situation for 2 cities, in this PDF: http://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/report991.pdf.

That's a very interesting read. Of particular note, they had average expenditures in excess of their income, and we have triple the buying power they did... That doesn't surprise me because the west have experienced tremendous wealth generation.

That graph demonstrating the expenditures related to non-essential items was revealing, I think. It illustrated a definite shift in spending, but does it really answer the "are artisan quality products significantly more expensive now than they used to be" question? I'm not sure if we can interpret it that way, necessarily, can we? I honestly don't know, but it's an interesting discussion. As you noted, there definitely appears to have been more architectural detail in older homes and buildings, but I wonder now if those were actually the wealthier sections...

I'm not sure what the answer is, but there are both good and bad things about our modern time. One thing seems obvious to me, though: the West will see massive changes in the (relatively) near future.

 

[Paul]

So, over the last week, I got lost in two really good books. The most recent was The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown. Something occurred to me after reading 500+ pages in two days: "Focus on the journey not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it" (Greg Anderson) has been a recurring them, and even my signature, for the entire time I've been involved straight razors and the various fora.

Maybe we our expectations should be that these things are available and in a condition that we can get ready for use... like it is now (for the most part). Like a good book, maybe the investment in time is where the satisfaction really comes from.

 

[decraew]

"Focus on the journey not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it"

That's not something that comes naturally in our Western civilisation. We're way too goal oriented. I've encountered and appreciate this philosophy in my aikido practice.

 

[Toff]

"Focus on the journey not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it"

That's not something that comes naturally in our Western civilisation. We're way too goal oriented. I've encountered and appreciate this philosophy in my aikido practice.

When we "customize" " properly hone or otherwise make a mass produced, or even custom product, our own, we enjoy the process and the product is ours, and will be enjoyable due to our participation in its "quality." I am very tactile and so when I buy a tool, I remove all the bumps and mold flash and roughness to make it "mine."
Getting back to the premise of Expectations, Unless I am willing to pay a huge amount or "do it myself" I have to settle for reduced expectations of most goods I can afford. Fortunately, there are more and more vendors of quality components that I may use for my projects.
Respectfully
~Richard

 

[Bart]

So, over the last week, I got lost in two really good books. The most recent was The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown. Something occurred to me after reading 500+ pages in two days: "Focus on the journey not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it" (Greg Anderson) has been a recurring them, and even my signature, for the entire time I've been involved straight razors and the various fora.

Maybe we our expectations should be that these things are available and in a condition that we can get ready for use... like it is now (for the most part). Like a good book, maybe the investment in time is where the satisfaction really comes from.

That is an interesting idea, to extend such a philosophy to how we evaluate a purchase. It's okay if stuff reaches us imperfect, because when one buys imperfection one receives the challenge to perfect the product, and to add personal determination to it. But at the same time, there is a kind of holistic paradox here. Let's say I wanted to bake a bread. By the definition of that wish, I would not buy a finished bread. I would buy flour and yeast and a few other ingredients. I could get a sac of flour from industrial agriculture origin, produced buy people who don't really care what their job is, as long as it pays a decent living. Or I could buy my flour at the historical windmill on my village that buys his grain from a small farmer who specializes in the biological cultivation of ancient cereals, that have more taste than modern high-output wheat species. The latter flour will certainly less perfect. From EU regulations viewpoint, it might not even be totally fit for human consumption, because of the artisanal milling process that "contaminates" the flour with stone dust and wood fibers. But, and I speak with experience, the resulting bread tastes thrice as good and is a multitude more satisfying to make. One day, I will bake it in the wood-fired oven of my own bakehouse, and then it will be even better. But I digress. The holistic process demands that every person involved has contributed to the end-results with passionate care for the object, himself, his environment, his (unknown) customer. When those premisses are fulfilled, it is great to receive an object that is not quite finished yet, in which I am expected to invest something of myself. But at the same time: receiving the result of someone's inconsidered precipitation just plain sucks.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Paul]

Now there's a great contribution :thumbup:

I think we're on to something...