My one and only coticule

Disburden

Well-Known Member
Hey guys! I have been meaning to post a picture of my coticule with slurry stone for about a year now on SRP and for some reason I kept forgetting about it, well here it is. My main question is can anyone tell what layer this coticule may be? It can cut fast and slurry usually gets blackened within 10-20 half strokes.


http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo281/Disburden/DSC00907.jpg



DSC00907.jpg
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
PA23-250 said:
What do the sides look like? Do they have thin blueish lines running parallel (or nearly)?
Yes, we do need to see the sides, for a change at a positive identification.
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
Here's more pictures with the side views, I'm sorry the size cuts off:


http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo281/Disburden/DSC00908.jpg
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo281/Disburden/DSC00910.jpg


DSC00908.jpg


DSC00910.jpg
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
That's the fast side of "La Nouvelle Veine" (It's a layer that offers 2 types of Coticules). Your hone most likely preforms a lot like n°8 in the Vault.
The texture of the surface and those fine blue hairlines at the side are very typical for that part of "La Nouvelle Veine".

These are great Coticules: fast with slurry, yet incredibly fine for finishing. Not the easiest to work with, but once mastered, they deliver perfect edges.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
It's very tough when trying to use the dilucot method because it gets fine very fast when you drip water. I was wondering if the layer it came from had something to do with this. Thanks so much for telling me about it, it's just become a lot more special to me because of it.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Nick,
I just edited your post to make the pictures fitting. You could go back to the editor to see how it's done. (just at "=860" after the first IMG-tag).

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
Great, thank you for your help!!

I just spent extra time this afternoon finishing up an edge with the coticule and water. I remembered what you said about how slow this one is with water so I did more laps than usual. The edge is very nice. :love:
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
Does anyone have any tips on how to reach good keeness on the dilucot method with this layer of coticule? I have a very fast hone with slurry that removes A LOT of steel during the bevel stage and with water it is extremely slow, but the bevel will hardly cut arm hair when I start the dilution phase. As Bart said this hone is just like NO.8 in the vault and you can see his evalution of the hone in the vault section. I think since the slurry becomes black so fast that the bevel is being pushed through a thick mud of metal right away, thus the low keeness as mentioned in the vault for no.8 (+ hardly cuts arm hair off bevel setting).

Basically I can remove a lot of steel fast with slurry but the hone slows down so much during the dripping stage that you're polishing before keenness is even reached. If you watch Bart's new video on the improved Dilucot method I am doing the exact same thing with the same amount of water drops. The water drops are also very small, when they land on the hone they are about the size of my pinky nail.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
Diburden i find that keeping the slurry well waterd during dilution i hit better keeness. adding water to little and not often restricts keeness. after bevel setting i go straight to very milky slurry and work on there for a while. then i just keep it real milky all the way throught untill the hone looses the feel of cutting rinse and hone then rub the hone clean , add more clean water do 30 light laps . Then i let the hone rest for 10 minutes. Go back and do 1 set of back and forth strokes. then finish with 30 more regular x's . I normaly see even more improvemant from hht. this is how i've found my L4 to work to the max for me . the last 3 edges of this hone have been ultra smooth, smoother than the escher.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Nick,
Listen to Gary. He knows what he's talking about. You should not have problems with good Dilucot outcome on a La Nouvelle Veine.
I think you're diluting too slow. I reckon you've read the updated
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?

Best regards,
Bart.
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
Thanks Gary! I Think you're right about the water. I think I may need to add more water than usual because of the speed of the coticule with Slurry. I use a milky slurry from the start but the slurry will become "Jet Black" by the tenth half stroke, the hone is extremely fast in a slurry. If you watch Bart's new video and see how the slurry turns grey within about 15 half strokes, my hone would have a dark black mud all over it running on the table by that point in the process.
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
Bart,


I have copied your new method exactly, maybe the water droplets aren't big enough to add it to a keenness level.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
i have found keeping anice poodle on the hone . the slurry is still there but its not to dense.

i use barts new method i do add a little more droplets if i add a little to much i just work longer on that amount of slurry/water. i have tryed so many differant hones. but seriously once you get a smooth sahve of the coticule you won't look back. i would say instead of getting a thury get a moderate cutting coticule. I find they reach keeness easier, while your original coticule can set the bevel . the 3 edges i have of my hybrid are wicked and very consistant. The othwer side was'nt as succesful. i will work on that side untill i hit the same edge.That side cuts very qquik indeed. my 21 is moderate cutter and that also reeches keeness much easier.

with the dilucot method it does'nt take as long so keep trying , just rehone and you will see. I'd love you to borrow my dovo i just honed you'd see watt i mean.It just glides.
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
Thanks Gary. I think the speed of the hone was taken for granted, I am going to try to take a razor tonight and try the method again. I have about 18 razors on hand so it's not a big deal. You're a gentlemen, thank you. :thumbup:
 

Disburden

Well-Known Member
This morning I decided to put away my synthetic hones, shapton, nortons, Naniwas, etc and RE_hone a razor I Finished on an Escher last week. I have been having zero success with my coticule and I will admit it, I gave up and kept it as a finisher to look back to from time to time.

I am glad I took my Coticule you see above out of it's sleep though, this morning I finally made improvements. I remembered all the talk about how your slurry can be too thick, especially on my layer of coticule, a very fast one in slurry. I was basically dulling my edges in slurry was faster than I thought I was. To prevent this I used a thinner slurry than I thought was acceptable, dulled on glass, and rebuilt the bevel in that.

The razor's bevel was set but not keen at all. Then I looked at coticule #8 in the vault (its just like mine) and saw how it only gets a + on how it shaves hair in slurry. I gave it some circle laps and half strokes and diluted it a little.

In the next step is where I found keenness. In the slightly more diluted slurry I worked the edge on half strokes, I didn't this a lot more than in Bart's video as I remember him saying my coticule will take more time in the dilution phases to get keenness. I basically took a half hour just half stroking and doing circles while slowly diluting, I can't even explain how slowly I diluted.

In Bart's video you see he adds a drop of water on a very regular basis, after one lap of half strokes (Ie 15 on one side, 15 on the other...add a drop of water). I didn't do this because it doesn't work for my coticule. Instead I listened to Gary and only added a drop of water when I heard and felt that level of slurry was done cutting the edge of the razor. I was amazed on how many more half strokes I had to make compared to Bart's video and his coticule. I pretty much made 40 sets of 15 half strokes per dilution step to achieve keenness. The reason I had to do this was my coticule is extremely fast in slurry but as soon as you start to dilute the hone becomes VERY VERY slow. This takes a very calculated approach to diluting that is different than shown on youtube.

I tested the edge on hair tests this morning (I don't like HHT, I prefer shaving tests) and the edge was pretty damn sharp, my stroke was a little off though as the toe wasn't sharpened! :confused: My stroke is used to X patterns and large hones like the Norton combo so I need to familiarize myself with this stone more.


When trying to use the dilucot method please remember that you can't follow Bart's video exactly unless you have the same type of coticule, yours can be very different and it may make you frustrated.

Tonight I will dull on glass again and see if I can get the whole edge this time! :thumbup:
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
Nick i'd still give it ago on the old shave test just to see how it shaves . i have a very fast coticule . this is my hybrid coti i find the faster coticule more tricky.my other side is a little slower and reaches keeness a little easier.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Thanks for giving us an update, Nick.

There's no need to start all over again. It's very unlikely that the tip of your razor needs that amount of work. It probably just stayed behind a bit somewhere during the dilution phase. I would first try to raise a very misty slurry (just a few rubs of the slurry stone and take it from there. While doing halfstrokes, put your index finger on top of the part that needs more work (in this case the tip part of the blade)

You're right with your statement, that Dilucot can't be learned by just copying the video I made. One of the variables indeed is how fast (or slow) you have to take it though the dilution stage. You opted to do it very slow, which is always the sage route if you don't know your Coticule very well. I am sure that you will be able to go through it considerable faster, when you've become more more experienced with your particular specimen. In the video, I was using a La Grosse Blanche, not one that allows for very fast dilution. One thing I'm always watching out for, is that I don't allow the slurry to become dryer, because the process will move backwards. It's better to add very little water often than to add more water at wider intervals. (For the same reason, I don't think one can do a Dilucot with a spray-bottle, as it offers very poor control on the amount of water offered.)

Concerning the HHT. It's a weird statement to compare it to shaving. Surely the proof of the pudding is in eating it. Shaving is why we sharpen a razor in the first place. But I can't imagine having to lather up and shave a small patch of my beard each time I want to know whether I'm nearly there during a sharpening job. There are only 2 indicators that can tell us something about the level of sharpness while sharpening straight razors, without actually eating the proverbial pudding: the thumb pad test (TPT) and some form of cutting hair tests. Of the latter kind , the HHT is one of the most reliable and repeatable. That said, it is important to know how the outcome correlates to the shave. The hair itself makes some difference, although far less than often assumed. The finishing method makes much more difference. There are ways to finish a razor so that it doesn't pass a HHT, but still shaves reasonably well. Coticule finished edges are not among them. Show me a good Coticule edge and it will sever a clean hanging hair. Of course, you don't need to use the HHT, but I dare to give it my warmest recommendation. It's very easy to quickly try a HHT while honing. Does is play "violin"? Great, than you know you're nearly done.
Does is slice the hair lengthwise? Coming close. Sometimes I will try a number of different finishing strategies, only to get the HHT from 2 to 3. I often put more effort into that, than in the dilution stage. Do you think I would be bothered if I didn't knew it's going to make a very distinct difference? :)

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
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