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Pictures of bevels and edges thread at Shave Ready

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
There is what I consider an interesting thread starting at Shave ready, in which Tom Blodgett aims to compare edges off different finishing stones, a few members there have good scopes and I believe this could prove to be a very interesting study.
The 2nd and 3rd pictures show the edge of a Charnley Forest finished Double Arrow, honed by yours truly, I plan to send Tom razors finished on my thuringian, and each coticule that I have so that we can see the difference that the different layers make.
Could be good, anyway the thread is here:
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Best Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
G

Guest

A lot has been said about pictures of bevels, and how little they tell about the actual story. There is an engrossing thread on SRP (which I am too lazy to dig up now) in which the same bevel is shown at minimally different angles and subtly differing lighting conditions. You can see all sorts of fancy stuff happening. Enough, at least, to qualify any attempt at drawing any sort of conclusion from such a picture as charlatanry. Even more so if the pictures were taken by people with different setups.

Sorry, Ralfy, but that theme is old, and the underlying problem of inconsistency and non-deductability of results still remains. Nice if you want to flaunt your microscope, useless by ways of comparing... uhhhhh... what is it they are trying to compare again?

As an aside, I find it a strange that a) the thread is fuelled by a hone vendor (
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) and b) one has to subscribe to that so called forum in order to see the pictures uploaded there.

Regards,
Robin

(Edit) I took a series of images taken by Tim Zowada in a more controlled environment and put them
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and
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.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Oh well I thought it was interesting
and had no idea that the forum required membership in order to view the pictures?

Best wishes
Ralfson (Dr)
 
G

Guest

Well, it is interesting - if you have not seen it before. I just edited my previous post to include links to images taken by Tim Zowada. Check the setup he created. Still not a controlled environment, but certainly light years ahead of "look, I have a microscope and, eh!, my edges are, like, totally super or something." ;)

The "sign up to see the interesting stuff" trick is old. I also find it tacky, but to each their own.
 
G

Guest

Yeah, well, apologies and all that, but I really am that easy to predict. I am all in favour of original research and good documentation. ;)
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
BeBerlin said:
A lot has been said about pictures of bevels, and how little they tell about the actual story. There is an engrossing thread on SRP (which I am too lazy to dig up now) in which the same bevel is shown at minimally different angles and subtly differing lighting conditions. You can see all sorts of fancy stuff happening. Enough, at least, to qualify any attempt at drawing any sort of conclusion from such a picture as charlatanry. Even more so if the pictures were taken by people with different setups.
An old thread by yours truly. :) Here's the link:
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BeBerlin said:
Sorry, Ralfy, but that theme is old, and the underlying problem of inconsistency and non-deductability of results still remains. Nice if you want to flaunt your microscope, useless by ways of comparing... uhhhhh... what is it they are trying to compare again?
Indeed. I'm a bit tired right now to reformulate the same reply once more, but allow me copy one from another site.
Bart at other site said:
We look at images of one of the bevel sides. And we see that some hones/pastes polish it better than others. But do these edges also shave better?

When it comes to severing whiskers, the edge with the thinnest radius on top to the bevel, will probably cut with the least effort. Although serrations -when present- can add performance to an edge as well.
(...)
It remains a scientific fact that a razor's edge needs an apex radius below 0.5 micron, with 0.40 micron probably shaving better than 0.45. Unfortunately, the optical resolution limit of smallest details that can be observed with normal light-microscopy is about 1 micron. This limit is directly connected to the shortest wavelengths of visible light, and can only be met in laboratory conditions, looking through oil instead of air, with optimized lighting conditions. That limitation, and the fact we're looking sideways, allows us to observe only indirectly. It's like looking at women's butts from a distance. It's an indication, but you never know for sure till you get to see the front. And even then, the lady hasn't spoken yet...

(...)

But we're not just severing whiskers. We're shaving. The razor has to glide over our skin, and that puts very specific demands upon the edge. And this makes it subject of an never ending discussion about better and best. Some people have a tough leathery skin, others have sensitive, thin skin. Some people shave with feathery light hand, others rely on a slightly heavier hand. Part of the shaving style depends on the coarseness of the beard, part of it depends on the temperament and dexterity of the one that wields the razor.
I personally have shaved with edges that I could only qualify as "too aggressive". Probably other guys would have loved such an edge, but for me, it caused build-up of irritation, when shaving 3 times in 6 days, and a whole lot of "weepers", bleeding specks where the razors sliced through my skin papillae.
Were these edges too keen? Probably. Or were they too ragged? I doubt it. One of the hones that gives me such an edge is a Chosera 10K. It produces a mirror-like polish. Lapping film up to 0.3 micron was another no-go for me. Again, mirror like edges, spotless when inspected at magnification.

BeBerlin said:
As an aside, I find it a strange that a) the thread is fuelled by a hone vendor (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) and b) one has to subscribe to that so called forum in order to see the pictures uploaded there.

I don't know about Tom Blodget's motives. He strikes me a someone with a passion for sharpening and a genuine interest in the physics. That he happens to also earn a buck with his semi(?)-profession, doesn't mean that his attempts aren't genuine.
Not being a member of shaveready.com, I too can't see the pictures, by the way.
But regardless of that, using optical microscopy to compare hones, is an exercise in futility. It's easy to spot structural damage with a microscope, and a trained eye can also assess the flatness of the bevel. But for predicting if a razor will shave, it's completely useless, let alone the prediction how well it can shave...
SEM pictures, like the ones professor Verhoeven shared with the world are much more useful, because they can show the edge up front with enough resolution to actually measure the radius. That's the only way to see how keen an edge is.

tat2Ralfy said:
Well I am sorry and not at all surprised that you feel that way Robin.
That is a diminutive remark. As if Robin would only criticize the used methods out of habit. I personally prefer to discuss with arguments.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
tat2Ralfy said:
Well I am sorry and not at all surprised that you feel that way Robin.
That is a diminutive remark. As if Robin would only criticize the used methods out of habit. I personally prefer to discuss with arguments.

Kind regards,
Bart.

That what not my intention, I just thought we might see some interesting pictures, no more, no less

Kindest Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
I'm reminded of a guy who was fond of taking pictures of razors honed by a well known guy and comparing his edges on the basis of the quality of the pictures. Having had the opportunity to shave with razors honed by both (including the personal favorite shaver of the guy I'm referencing), I learned quickly that the quality of the edge under microscopy means very little, except within the parameters outlined by Bart. Recently another well known razor man seemed very defensive in a thread when questioned about what point his pictures proved. Like many, he failed to realize that just because his edge looked impressive and shaved well that didn't mean his pictures proved anything.

LIke Ralfy, I'm not surprised in the least that Robin feels the way he does. He's expressed similar opinions on numerous occasions. Each time, I have agreed with him. :thumbup: However, I would definitely say that he would criticize the techniques in question out of habit at this point :lol:

While it's difficult to discern the REAL intent of the gentlemen responsible for the thread linked in the OP, I find the fact that only members can see the pictures off putting. As such, I am not inclined in the least to bother with them or the site... Besides, I've got more important things to do, like finally getting around to exploring my Purple La Petite Blanche that I picked up the same time as my Les Latneuses... I've literally not touched a razor to it yet (that says a little something about my Les Latneuses I'd say). :sleep:
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Well I logged on there as a guest and checked a few threads out, some show pictures and some dont, I am guessing its more to do with the OP using their own host e.g. photobucket, than it is to do with "Join or dont see the good bits"

I vote that I leave it a few days and delete this thread, it doesnt seem to be quite serving the purpose I had in mind, that being of course to provide a little entertainment looking at bevels from different finishers.

Paul I am so happy you are getting along so well with your new Coticule :thumbup:

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
G

Guest

tat2Ralfy said:
Well I logged on there as a guest and checked a few threads out, some show pictures and some dont, I am guessing its more to do with the OP using their own host e.g. photobucket, than it is to do with "Join or dont see the good bits"
I beg to differ. The site is set up to not show attachments to non-members. This behaviour was developed for high traffic sites suffering from unmanageable amounts of traffic, however.

tat2Ralfy said:
I vote that I leave it a few days and delete this thread, it doesnt seem to be quite serving the purpose I had in mind, that being of course to provide a little entertainment looking at bevels from different finishers.
I am sure there must be a misunderstanding on my behalf - you are certainly not suggesting that you are going to use your moderator powers to randomly delete threads containing other users' content because they do not serve your intended purpose, right?

Thanks,
Robin
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
BeBerlin said:
I beg to differ. The site is set up to not show attachments to non-members. This behaviour was developed for high traffic sites suffering from unmanageable amounts of traffic, however.

To be honest I know nothing of that, and nor do I care.
BeBerlin said:
I am sure there must be a misunderstanding on my behalf - you are certainly not suggesting that you are going to use your moderator powers to randomly delete threads containing other users' content because they do not serve your intended purpose, right?

Indeed there is a misunderstanding on your behalf, I cant believe that you see things that way, I expressed my reason for "thinking" about deleting this thread earlier.

If you are as happy as it seems to take my thread, which was solely about interesting pictures, and turn it into a discussion on Forum politics and moderation issues, that's entirely up to you of course, it is not however a subject that interests me, so please excuse me if I dont join in.

I wish you every happiness
my warmest regards and deepest respects
Ralfson (Dr)
 
G

Guest

tat2Ralfy said:
Indeed there is a misunderstanding on your behalf, I cant believe that you see things that way, I expressed my reason for "thinking" about deleting this thread earlier.
This thread actually does serve a purpose, albeit not the one you had intended. It details why pictures of edges taken with light-microscopes are meaningless.

tat2Ralfy said:
If you are as happy as it seems to take my thread, which was solely about interesting pictures, and turn it into a discussion on Forum politics and moderation issues, that's entirely up to you of course, it is not however a subject that interests me, so please excuse me if I dont join in.
I wonder why you are taking this discussion personally, Ralfy. I made two valid points in my first reply to your original message: 1) the images are meaningless, 2) the forum to which you linked is trying to boost its user count.
tat2Ralfy said:
I wish you every happiness
my warmest regards and deepest respects
Ralfson (Dr)
If you allow me a personal remark, I do not feel that your sarcasm is in any way conducive to this discussion, nor do I feel that it is warranted.

Regards,
Robin
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
I will try to approach this slow, so I'm reverting back to the first post. The underlining is mine.

tat2Ralfy said:
There is what I consider an interesting thread starting at Shave ready, in which Tom Blodgett aims to compare edges off different finishing stones, a few members there have good scopes and I believe this could prove to be a very interesting study.

Now, Ralfson, my dear friend, that quote from your first post doesn't fit with your later statement:

tat2Ralfy said:
If you are as happy as it seems to take my thread, which was solely about interesting pictures, and turn it into a discussion on Forum politics and moderation issues

I have read meaningful arguments that invalidate the use of optical microscopy for said study about differences between finishing stones, but as Paul's great reply explained so well, this particular topic is always mixed up with particular agendas to proof some hones better than others. It is my personal opinion that this particular issue (which hone is best) can never be resolved, for the simple reason that it is a non-issue. Most of us remember the thread with one of our members stating that the vast majority of Coticules are not suitable for edge finishing on razors. In the end, that thread boiled down to the methods being used, that indeed don't deliver good results. Hence he was right. And wrong at the same time. In his practice, most Coticules didn't deliver good finishes, while for myself, Coticules deliver the best edges I ever get.
Instead of arguing about that, or running studies that head no where, I believe it's better to investigate in studies that optimize the use of a particular hone.

As far as deleting threads is concerned, that may be the reflex to deal with annoying topics on other forums, but as long as I have anything to say on these boards, no person will ever spend time formulating and typing a reply only to see it removed later on. Note that Ralfson and I could easily take our slight disagreement behind the scenes and reemerge to speak with one voice. But I choose not to. The associates of Coticule.be are individuals. We don't always agree on everything. Neither do the members. We speak freely. I always say to my 2 daughters: choose your words carefully, once out, you can't take them back.

Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Bottom line for me is this

I thought Toms thread had some interesting pictures, end of. the pictures are of bevels not edges of course, and thats whats being compared, my bad, wrong word. I meant Study as in something to look at, not in the scientific sense.

I aired my thought about deleting this thread because, A. only members can see the pictures (I didnt know thatwhen I started this thread)
B. No one seemed that interested.

I meant no sarcasm to anyone

My Best Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

mrmaroon

Well-Known Member
This is kind of OT, but how do you find the CF edge compares to a coticule or thuringian ralfy?

Regards,
Caleb
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
mrmaroon said:
This is kind of OT, but how do you find the CF edge compares to a coticule or thuringian ralfy?

Regards,
Caleb

So far I would say the CF is very comparable to a "Crisp" Coticule edge, My Thuringian is a little "softer" on the face, but my favourite at the moment is the hybrid side of my Burton series, very sharp, best HHT ever and so so smooth and forgiving, I do like the CF and Thurry edges though, but I wouldnt want to pay top dollar for either of them.

Hope this helps and makes sense

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
Well..... :-/

Gentlemen, I am on my own sharpening/honing journey - regardless of the fact that I own a business or would like to eventually hone razors for other people. Bart has nailed it: I love sharpening/honing and everything around it. My motives for the thread are for fun and for some simple comparisons.

The fact that you must be a member to see the pictures is not of my design. I would happily post them here, but it seems they would be met with some harsh criticism....
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Welcome Tom, I think you will find this place unlike any other forum, here we totally believe in free speech, and why we dont all agree on everything, you will find that healthy discussion is welcomed rather than frowned upon.
We have heated debates at times but never make enemy's, and we also understand that we all dont have to see things the same way, please feel welcome and enjoy the place, its like a breath of fresh air

My warmest regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
jendeindustries said:
I would happily post them here, but it seems they would be met with some harsh criticism....
Welcome Tom. Make that 'they would be met with honest criticism". :) I believe sharpening is a science. Just like it has always been through history of mankind, people tend to turn the part of the science that we don't fully comprehend yet into religion. During my SRP-days, I 've always read your contributions with special interest, because I think you have a similar view on sharpening. It's nice to see you posting. Please don't take this thread or anything that is in it personal. It's not.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
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