Proud New Coti Owner!

[wdwrx]

Thank you Gary,
That's pretty much exactly what I did last night, (dulicot) but my skin is a little too sore to try shaving yet.
I really had some issues with HHT test though.... nothing off the hones, and hht4 off the strops. I actually lugged out the microscope to eyeball the edge, and it sure does look nice, but it seems to show a bit of the sandblasted look at the very bevel (@100x). I was honing at the sink, and rinsing the hone every 5 or 6 laps, (not directly under running water) so I think there might be a bit of slurry dulling that happened. The tap is too low to get it underneath comfortably, so I thought I'd cheat a bit... It might have back-fired. Shaving arm hair showed pretty good keenness, but it seemed to have a strange sticky quality against my skin.

I don't have any TI pastes, but I do have CrOx and CeOx. I haven't used any pastes on my coti edges... yet. I'm holding that in reserve until I know I've maxed out my coti.
Tonight the plan is to do one up on BBW as well. I guess I should do another 2 razors, BBW and Coti each, and then strop those two with crox/ceox.

One thought that keeps popping into my head... Is anyone interested in a "razor exchange"? I'd like to try a coti edge, but one I know has been honed very very well, and I was hoping to get some poor sucker to try my coti edge, and tell me what they think of it, and where it needs improvement. What I'm thinking is that I'll send out my best honed razor, some willing soul can try it, re-hone it and send it back. Is anyone game? *edit* I'm more than willing to cover postage both ways.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

One thought that keeps popping into my head... Is anyone interested in a "razor exchange"? I'd like to try a coti edge, but one I know has been honed very very well, and I was hoping to get some poor sucker to try my coti edge, and tell me what they think of it, and where it needs improvement. What I'm thinking is that I'll send out my best honed razor, some willing soul can try it, re-hone it and send it back. Is anyone game?

I am your man, that is something that I have been involved with for a little while now, if you wish to send me a razor honed by you, I will test shave and give my honest and humble opinion, then I will dull and re-hone for you to do the same.
Just P.M if you would like to give it a go

My kindest regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Matt]

Well, Sir Bart offered me such a generous service, but I figured I might wait until I get my gear from Ray. But this way I won't have my edges assessed, which Bart offered too, so maybe I will finally kick myself and get it done since I don't think that I am bringing out the best what can be done with my razors.

Maybe Ray would be willing to do so? Or someone closer to your location in US? Unless you don't mind shipping it to and fro?

regards,
Matt

 

[garyhaywood]

you can send one to me i will pay postage back.i'm in uk if thats not a problem. send razor honed dilucot and i will send back dilucot honed no paste just coticule edge

 

[Matt]

There you go, Chris - you won't be left alone over here. :thumbup:

 

[wdwrx]

Thanks guys! I don't mind shipping over-seas. I'll take both Ralfson and Gary up on this. PM's inbound...

 

[Bart]

I'm not there yet.:thumbdown:
(...)

There were hints of that skin-friendly coti edge, (...)
About the BBW side and Bart's suggestion: Is the purpose of that to add some serration to the edge? From the larger garnets?

It is not forbidden to use a Coticule in a progression with other hones. If you can get ample keenness with your Spyderco UF, why not use it for that and finish those edges your Coticule? Wittout raising slurry, using only water, Coticules are among the smoothers finishers arround. That's a virtue and a challenge at the same time. Virtue, because they can take the harshness out of an edge without reducing significant keenness. Challenge, because there is a manifest gap between use with slurry (fast refinement, but limited keenness) and use with water (on most stones almost no refinement, but amazingly smooth final polish). It doesn't matter if you fill that gap with Dilucot, Unicot, or a progression with other hones. As long as you've reached sufficient keenness when you enter the finishing stage.

If you smooth an edge that lacks performance, you'll end up with a smooth edge that lacks performance. You migh even loose some performance if the edge relied on microserrations for sharpness, because a Coticule will remove the teeth and leave you with the keeness at the bottoms of the microserrations. Not that I expect that to be a problem with your Spyderco UF.
My advice for trying a BBW with a haze of slurry, is because BBWs display farr less of the "slurry-dulling" effect than Coticules, certainly if we compare them to the faster Coticules. I have no solid explanation for that, but the difference is distinct enough to be monitored empirically. It has nothing to do with serrations. Garnets are not spiky particles that make deeper scratches when they are wider.

Allow me to elaborate: Garnets are round or elliptic in a faceted way. It are the clean angles between those facets that plow through the steel. We know that Coticule garnets have an average diameter between 5 and 15 micron and BBW garnets between 10 and 20 micron. So BBW garnets are bigger. But what I currently don't know, is if they're just enlarged Coticule garnets, or if they have more facets. That is a very important question, because in the latter case, the BBW garnets have facets with obtuser angles. Just draw a "circle" with 5 segments and one with 10 segments and compare the angles, if your want a visual illustration. It is clear that a larger garnet with obtuser corners will penetrate steel less deep (at equal honing pressure), than a smaller garnet with sharper corners. It may come as a complete surprise, but when used with similar slurry densities that is exactly what we can witness if we compare Coticules with BBWs. BBWs are slower than Cotiules (shallower garnet penetration?) and they hit a keener limit than Coticules. Obviously that is all on average, and there are other factors that influence speed and keenness limit, such as garnet concentration and release rate of fresh garnets, but that's a story for a future time. Let's just suffice to state that the "BBW-4K/Coticule-8K" claim has no single bearing with the practical use of these whetstones.

In conclusion a word of good advice: Dilucot only works when you're having fun. Really. Every single time I allowed frustration to take control of my mind, Dilucot failed big time. If that happens, just divert to Unicot: one layer of tape, a clean Coticule, a couple of rubs with the slurry stone, 20 of your lightest X-strokes ( and not more), rinse everything very well and finish with 60 of your lightest laps on water. Or use your method with the Spyderco UF to find better keenness before finishing on the Coticule.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Matt]

In conclusion a word of good advice: Dilucot only works when you're having fun.

A funny thing: Some time ago, maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago I took my considered-to-be-crappy Sanguine str8, that I had bought long time ago when I knew hardly anything about razors. I treated it as a training device, and solely for the purpose of practice I went through a full Dilucot, keeping everything as good as I could, yet remembering that it's just the training, and not expecting anything. By now you probably know what happened - I managed to get a nice HHT 4 from this piece of steel! Which perfectly confirms the above words.

Empty mind is sometimes a very desirable thing... :thumbup:

regards,
Matt

 

[Smythe]

wdwrx, Could you post a photo of the razor you are trying to sharpen?... it would help a little.

 

[wdwrx]

Thanks guys, but rest assured, I'm not honing frustrated. I'm still at the "determined" stage. And I'm enjoying myself tremendously. Both the research aspect of this, and the goal of honing itself. This is a pretty cool hobby, ya know. Honing has almost become some kind of therapy for me..... (not saying i need therapy..... most days ).

Smythe, I've been messing around with 4 razors, the cream of which is a 5/8 King Cutter. The other three are a "Jim-Slick" German steel 7/16, "The Electric City" German steel 9/16" and an Anonomyous 5/8 wedgy thing. Here's some crappy snapshots. I've tried to show the grinds. If anyone would like better photos just holler.

For the most part they are all 3/4 hollow (I think), the only full hollow I have (I've got a Dovo coming in the mail) is out on loan.

Bart, thanks for the great reply, it gave me something to mull over at work today. I'm curious to see the results from the BBW side. I've had the idea of "4K" planted in my mind, so I hadn't given it much credit. I'll drag the microscope out and do a side by side comparison.

All right! 'nuff said. Those two Mohito's are kickin in! My typing skills are plummeting.

 

[Smythe]

Nice collection...

The Jim-Slick looks to have been Bread-Knifed, (probably, originally 5/8 – 11/16th). Grind away some of that thick stabilizing piece at the heel so it will be well behind the edge… this will get that thick piece out of the way of honing.
Don’t know why but the 67 Electric City appears to be nickel plated, if that’s so you will have a hard time honing it to a comfortable shave.

The profile of that anonymous Wedgie thing appears to be a Swedish razor. Even though the bevel appears thin, those near wedge grind razors need a little more effort to get a good edge… and the razor was Bread-Knifed then you may want to set the bevel on another course stone before going back to the Coticule for polishing.

Check that King Cutter for frowns, it could be just the photo that makes it look that way to me.
Have a look at this post that will explain how to check for frowns and other edge inconsistencies.
http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/message/6219.html
If the edge is nice and flat (hopefully with a slight smile) give it another go at the hones, those Bokers are known to be good shavers when properly sharpened.

Lastly, this is just an observation… and I could be wrong… Your razors appear to have no bevels… or I see no shine on the spine or edge to suggest they were honed. It could simply be the photo playing tricks on my eyes.

 

[wdwrx]

Thank you Smythe, some valuable info there. Heavens know why I hadn't noticed some of these things earlier.

The Boker has a really nice blade profile. The photo is just an illusion. The Jim Slick, and the Electric City both have a slight frown I hadn't noticed before, that don't show in the photos... go figure. Thanks for the impetus though.... I feel kinda silly for not checking previously. The irony is, I've examined both the frowning blades under 100x magnification, but somehow never bothered with a real-life eyeballing. The forest for the trees, I guess.

The Electric City *is* very shiny, kinda reminds me off the shiny handle-bars from my childhood bicycle. Until i held it up to my spyderco, it did sport the best edge [edit: I say "best" but, having yet to shave with it, "most successful HHT" would be more accurate] I've achieved with duilcot yet. That's one of the ones destined for a trip across the pond to Ralphy and Gary. Imagine my embarrassment if they found those frowns:

The Wedgie thing, which I guessed may have started life as a HG6/8, (wink to Ralphy) doesn't appear to have been reground or bread-knifed, because the heel has good geometry, and, coincidentally, came from a Swedish gent ("Honed" from B&B). As you pointed out about the Jim Slick, that one has issues with the heel that seems to confirm your idea about it having been bread-knifed away.

I do hope you're wrong about the bevels:w00t: Maybe that's why they don't shave worth a damn!

Kidding. I do apologize for the poor quality pics, there most definitely are bevels on them. Very shiny coticule bevels!

Off to the shop to spin up the ol' dremel

Thank you, Kind Sir, for your most thoughtful response.

 

[wdwrx]

WOW!... just... freakin' WOW!:w00t:


OK... now I know what the hell you guys are talking about!
I just got out of the bathroom, and had to post this.

I used my King Cutter, honed with a progression that used three of my finishers: Dulicot to the end of the slurry, Nani12k, Spyderco UF (with dish-soap), Back to the Coti w/ water, Crox/Ceox on a paddle. Shave!

WOW! (did I say that already?)

Smooth, forgiving, and sharp, all in one. I know I've posted elsewhere on the net about having had the best shave ever, but this time I really mean it! First pass was as good as my usual 2nd pass, 2nd pass saw me pretty much DFS'd. A couple of little touch ups and good to go! BBS! NO burning from the alum, AS was, like, water; none of that invigorating burn I'm kinda hooked on.

I know it wasn't true dulicot, but I really needed a razor that would shave me above all else; pride be damned.

Honing was kinda interesting. I could feel both the Nani and Spyderco smoothing my slurry edge, and then I could feel the coti cutting it back a bit. I think I'll try the same progression with my Thurry, just for kicks. I've had the same issues reaching keenness with it that I've had with my coti.

It's hard to explain, and I'm sure this audience knows exactly what I'm talking about, but that coti finished edge sure suited my skin/whisker combination.

Cheers, and Thanks!
-Chris

 

[Bart]

Great new, thank you for posting.

I's actually a CrO/CeO finished edge you experienced. But who cares? As long as you had a great shave.:thumbup:
hmm....
But please do me a small favor. Next time you hone a razor following that progression, stop at the Coticule finish, and at least try it once. Plenty of time to file out the pasted strop later.

For me personally, the wow effect of CrO (I have no experience with Cerium oxide), wears off during the second or third shave. I don't have that same experience with an edge finished on a hone. I don't know how much the issue is beard related. Several gentlemen have reported the same. Some of them just reapply a few CrO laps every 3 shaves. If you take it slow, you can get a fair amount of excellent shaves out of a razor before the bevel eventually becomes too convexed.

But a good Coticule edge doesn't benefit at all from CrO stropping.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

You're welcome. I'm glad to have you guys to share this with. Not sure what it says about me, but I'm having the most fun I've had in a long time.

What you say is true, Bart, it was a CrO/CeO edge. However, I think it must have had some of the qualities of a coti edge remaining, simply because it was unlike any edge I've shaved with yet, profoundly so. It certainly was not like my SpydercoUF edges finished with the same CrO/CeO. It was a lot more "user-friendly" and comfortable. I don't attribute that to the CrO/CeO; I'll gladly give that credit to the Coti! (wrongly or not)

I'll gladly do that small favor for you! I shouldn't have to do any more than return back to the Coti w/ water to remove the effect of the CrO, should I?

I am still going to keep working on achieving a succeseful dulicot; it's just tantalizingly out of reach. Now I know it's possible.

Cheers!
-Chris

 

[Smythe]

Great! Now that you know you can get an edge comfortably sharp, you can experiment and perfect your technique.
Don’t worry my friend, a successful Dilucot with a single stone is not far away.

 

[Bart]

I'll gladly do that small favor for you! I shouldn't have to do any more than return back to the Coti w/ water to remove the effect of the CrO, should I?

That depends on the substrate you used for pasted stropping (hanging leather, felt on a paddle, balsa, etc...), and the amount of work you did. It's possible that the edge became a bit convex. Per consequence, the very edge will no longer touch the flat surface of a hone. At least not until the "belly" of the convex bevel is removed. The Coticule with just water will be too slow to do that. In practice is seems that Balsa and some paddle strops (as long as they don't have too much cushion) leave the bevel straight enough to go back to a finishing hone after a pasted treatment. The other options don't. That is nothing bad, it just means that once you've chosen the pasted route for edge maintenance, you can't go back to finishing hones. One of the very reasons razor need a bevel correction stage during a full honing job.

I wouldn't worry about it for this razor. Just enjoy how it shaves. It is your success.:thumbup:

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

... For me personally, the wow effect of CrO (I have no experience with Cerium oxide), wears off during the second or third shave....
...But a good Coticule edge doesn't benefit at all from CrO stropping....

No kidding! It had worn off by the middle of the second shave. Started out pretty good, but by the end of the second pass it was doing a bit of scraping. A couple of weepers to show for my troubles.

Since I've used a good firm paddle strop, I think I'll just return it back to the coti under running water and dispense with the pastes next time around.

Cheers!
-Chris

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Bless you Chris and well done, yes IMHO a coticule edge lasts a long long time, about 6 months with good stropping technique I believe Rayman found on his Cmon if I remember correctly :thumbup:

if you try a hht on the edge before you return to the coti/water you will be able to tell if the pasted strop rounded the bevel and also when the coti has worked through that, the hht will alter once the bevel is totally flat, it may improve slightly, but more likely it will get a little worse at first, then continue untill you get hht 3 or 4, strop as said 60/60 canvas and leather, then the shave should delightful, and last a LOT longer than that pasted edge you just tried.

My kindest Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[wdwrx]

Thanks Ralphy. That makes good sense. It never would have occurred to me to try HHT before honing. I think I'm going to steal a lock of hair from SWMBO tonight while she's asleep. I've got no hair left on either arm, and picking them out of her brush is a real crap shoot.

I'll keep ya posted.

Cheers!
-Chris