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Seeking Profit in the Marketplace

Paul

Paul

Well-Known Member
This thread, and it's fraternal twin, have brought to the forefront the question of profiting on the local Marketplace.

For everyones' reference, here is the section of the rules under consideration:
[note]Seeking profit does not discharge you from honesty. Discribe your items perspicuously and truthfully. Do not pry on other people's ignorance. We have no other option than to ban you from all forum sections if you violate these rules![/note]

While the forum rules do imply that people there are likely seeking profit ("seeking profit...", there's also the requirement to describe the items being sold perspicuously (I really like that word :lol: )

I'm not one who sent a letter of support to the poster of those threads, but I think that there's a conversation that needs to be had here.

I've made it clear, at other times and likely other places, that I don't like marketplaces in general (on fora). I honestly couldn't care less about it, this specific sale, or the poster of that thread because I don't know him from Adam's off ox. However, clarification of what is and isn't acceptable may be in order.

If I happen across a Filarmonica EPBD and buy it for $15 in mint condition, would I be expected to pass on my good fortune to everyone else here if I decide I would prefer not to keep it? I guess the point is, forgetting the other shadiness of the linked thread, what disclosures are required to have a truthful listing? I certainly wouldn't assume that the associates want to go be about the business of monitoring profits. Or should profit be removed from the marketplace? Like I said, I don't care at all... I haven't listed anything for sale here, and likely won't. I just think it's a conversation that we may need to have. If not, tell me, and I'm happy to forget it :)
 
Quickly then before I get to bed.

I personally don't care how much profit someone makes by selling something in our Marketplace.
If I find 10 identical NOS razor in a drawer in a forgotten cupboard at my parents' attic, and I decide to keep one of them for myself, sell one of them to you for $10 and all others for $150 in the Marketplace, I think that's no one's business but mine and the persons who decided to pay my asking price.

I don't think the team that hosts a forum should be trying to dictate the price politics in his classifieds section.
I think people deserve a lot of latitude. That's also how I raise my children. With a lot of latitude. But at the same time, they have to know the limits. They know they can sit at my desk, write with my pens, use the stuff that sits in the same drawer as my Coticules. But they can't touch the razors that sit in open boxes on my desk. And they can't build a doll house with the hones. They know that and they respect it. Hence I don't need to restrict their access to my desk.

As similar attitude reigns this forum, although we're all adults among each other here. Everyone is allowed near the border. The rules are deliberately kept as few as manageable. But that does presume that people know where the limits are.
The limit in the Marketplace is honesty. Full disclosure. When in doubt, write more information than you have to. That never hurts. If one oversteps the lines, there are few prior warnings in a system that depends on personal responsibility. My children knew that very early on. I made sure they did.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
I fully agree with you, Bart, and that's how I always perceived things too.

It just seemed that there was a really negative reaction to the idea that someone might "flip" a razor bought on eBay, and I was curious if there was an official position against such.. I personally wouldn't do it, but don't have a major problem with it being done. I know there were other more suspicious things about those threads, but I wanted to focus on that question. Honesty, of course, is nonnegotiable.

Thanks
 
A few things to consider, maybe.

  1. [li]Prices for razors have risen quite a bit over the past two years. Demand is high, yes, but mainly beginners are prone to accepting high prices for razors with a "good" brand name. Funnily enough, that would probably include a few hundred or more Solingen brands no-one talks about because they did not produce in masses, or operated as extended work benches for the - then - big brands like Dovo, and sold excess products under their own name.[/li]
    [li]Prices on eBay are often used as a reference, but they can be horribly misleading. From sniping tools run amok to bidding wars by mentally challenged individuals, anything can happen, as witnessed by $500 Filarmonicas, and worse.[/li]
    [li]Costume scale makers have introduced a novel factor by adding markups of up to $200 for the scales alone. Nothing wrong with that per se, what with beauty lying in the eyes of the beholder and all that. But a) are those razors being used as a reference, too, and b) are some people now hunting specific blades because they want a clone of one of the poor things flaunted by scale vendors in certain forums. Personally, I think a razor without its original scales is worth less than a rescaled one, but I accept that other people think otherwise.[/li]
    [li]Patience has become a sparse commodity. Some people read a review of a certain razor and believe they must own one, too. Now, only very few razors are actually rare (like the ghost of a minty Puma 89 I have been chasing for four years now), but many are not. Especially the ones most written about, ie Dubl Duck, Filarmonica, and Wade & Butcher. They. Are. Not. Rare. They are run-of-the-mill razors. One guy says they are the bee's knees, several other buy, find them to be good or even excellent, share their thoughts, the hype starts. As stated previously, you need a lot of razors in the market to create a hype.[/li]
    [li]Certain characteristics are particularly sought after without enhancing the razor's performance. Dubl Ducks and Filarmonicas both suffer from scale defects, the former actually having scales that are broken in 9 out of 10 cases, the latter suffering from an early form of bowling ball recycling. So one should keep in mind that one is paying a premium for inferior quality. Again a matter of personal preference, but something many beginners are not aware of.[/li]
    [li]Last, there are very few true collectors around, and they usually do not share their views on prices. I was lucky to a) buy when razors were still reasonably cheap (anything could be had for $100 or less, and b) meet a few of those collectors who told me what to buy - and what not. I just went through my list of razors, and found that I own exactly five for which I paid more than $100. The rest I bought cheaper, or traded. Trading is, I believe, a vastly underrated way of obtaining razors one really wants. I once traded a good number of 4/8 razors for wedges, simply because both of us wanted what the other had. Needless to say that all of the razors have since changed owners, but that is part of the fun, is it not?[/li]
In an ideal world, razors to be sold should be sent to an independent board of valuers, then put in the market. I know this is not a feasible solution. But at least one should be allowed to comment on prices, if only by ways of comparison. However, that would be a price discussion the rules forbid, and I am not entirely certain that this is a good thing. Especially not if the seller posts overexposed pictures, thus making it nigh impossible to judge the actual state of the blade.

Regards,
Robin
 
[note]Rules of conduct

Welcome at the Cafeteria! Here you can exchange ideas with Coticule users from around the globe. Every visitor is free to read these forums, but you need to sign up for membership (it's free!) if you want to join the conversation. Please behave politely and keep an open mind. If you feel the need to debate, make sure to stay on topic: no name calling or character assaults will be allowed. The bartender of this joint has a short temper and a long memory. If you fail to behave like a gentleman, you 'll be asked to leave. No commercial activity of any kind is allowed, except in the "marketplace forum" that has a few additional rules, declared in the next paragraph. Feel free to review products and services, but don't use these forums to settle a dispute with a store or any other organization or person, alive or dead. All other problems will be dealt with by the bartender(s) case by case.

Additional rules for "Marketplace" forum.

Start a new thread for any item or service your are offering for sale. Clearly state the price in the first post. If there will be an additional postage fee, clearly state this with the item for sale. If you want to drop the price, announce the new price in the subject line of a new post.
We do not allow bidding. This is not an auction site.
Seeking profit does not discharge you from honesty. Discribe your items perspicuously and truthfully. Do not pry on other people's ignorance. We have no other option than to ban you from all forum sections if you violate these rules![/note]

In rereading all the rules, I don't see any prohibition on the discussion of prices. I'm assuming that as long as it's done in keeping with the spirit of the bolded section above, price discussion would be allowed. Would one of the Associates offer clarification on this, please?
 
I don't care if someone were to decide to hunt good deals on Ebay and make a nice profit reselling the items in our Marketplace. Our rules already imply that seeking profit is not forbidden. Where the goods come from is not of our concern, in as much they weren't stolen, contaminated with radiation, a murder weapon that someone tries to get rid of, or what else I can think off to would make an item contraband.

The notion that the associates intervened in that Marketplace thread because they resent "flipping Ebay razors" is merely perception. The problem was one of honesty. The kind of honesty that TV commercials and many salespeople around the globe have abandoned long time ago, but that we insist upon in our Marketplace.

Potential buyers have to depend on information shared by the seller to decided whether they make the purchase or not.
In the first place it is a matter of providing the potential buyer with all relevant information to know what he will be buying and to estimate a certain risk that the item might deviate from his expectations. This will have an influence on the price someone would be willing to pay.

Imagine I were to sell a 3 year old Dovo by posting a thorough description, but without pictures. This would still be acceptable according to our Marketplace standards. The absence of pictures would recoil many potential buyers and I might need to lower my price considerably before anyone is willing to buy. If I can't produce pictures, for what ever reason (can't be bothered, don't have a digital camera, can't manage to upload, etc), I know my item isn't going to sell so easily. I might be tempted to link to the Dovo's picture at the online store where I originally purchased it. It's still OK (let's presume the online store doesn't mind), but only if I state very clearly that the picture does not show the current condition of the razor . If I neglect to mention that, I am at least passively misleading my potential buyers. Now, where are we going to draw the line? Is it okay to use pictures made by the guy who sold the razor to the guy you sold it from? Let me answer with another question: What is so difficult in stating: "These pictures are taken from the Ebay listing of a guy that sold the razors to another guy that sold them to me."?

In the second place, it is relevant for the potential buyer to know the whereabouts of an item. In the aforementioned problematic Marketplace add, the items turned out to come from Japan only 2 weeks ago. As we all know, a part of Japan is unfortunately suffering a problem with radiation contamination at present. Some people will consider the risks insignificant (I would), but other people will choose to pass. It is equally relevant to know that everyone could have bought that exact item for 1/3 of the asking price on Ebay. That is not the same as finding it for free in a cupboard at the attic. Because the potential buyer is unlikely to find the same treasure at his attic, but on Ebay, he has a reasonable shot at finding a similar razor at a similar price. Again, some people won't mind and they might be prepared to pay the seller's asking price. But others will opt out and decided to take their chances on Ebay. And they will feel mislead if such information was kept concealed. If you sell something in our Marketplace and you have information of which you can suspect that some potential buyers would want to know, don't withhold that information . Once more, we don't care what the rest of the world may find acceptable in business.

And finally: should the associates feel that an item description leaves something to be desired, they will ask questions. They don't do that out of misanthropy, but because they act in the best interest of our members. Don't become confrontational if that happens. The associates are not here to penalize those who post on this forum. They are here to assure an honest, open atmosphere, that promotes ethical and gentlemanlike interaction, and to guide those who have trouble adapting to that convention.

I hope that answers most questions.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Thanks Bart. You're right the perception that I got from the threads in question was that the amount/percentage of the potential profits were an issue in addition to the other nefarious aspects of the circumstances. I have tried to intentionally leave out the other circumstances of those thread because I only wanted to "hone" in on the profit/flipping of razors question. :)
 
Bill Ellis has written a fantastic sellers's guide. I have taken the salient bits, and put them into the table below. If I were a buyer, I would find this a useful framework for a seller to use.
Feature Description
Width of blade:
Damage on blade, chips, cracks, or pitting:
Hone wear (If there is a sixteenth of an inch wide flat spot along the edge of the spine, indicate that the razor has evident hone wear. If the flat spot is parallel the entire length of the blade, you can call it "even hone wear". If there is no flat spot, there is no hone wear.)
Cracks in the scales (if so, describe them):
Original blade shape (When the blade is closed, does the very end of it come within 1/4 of an inch of the spacer between the scales? If the gap is greater than 1/4 of an inch, report is as a possible shortened blade.)
Scale warp (When the razor is closed, tell the buyer if the blade touches either side of the scales as it goes between them.)
Blade condition (Whether there is surface rust and whether there is pitting.)
 
Good stuff Robin.:thumbup:

I tried to add this to my earlier post, but I messed up on my iPad so.... New comment:

The reason I felt that "flipping" razors was an issue is because the seller was officially "warned" before given ample opportunity to answer the question, humbly. As as honest seller, I would have no issues posting pictures that someone else took provided it depicted the current condition of the razor, and I probably wouldn't have disclosed the source as I would have seen it as a non issue... Again, the other shady details of the story aren't debatable, he clearly showed some poor form, but I was curious about the official warning and other issues.

Thanks for discussing this patiently with us, not that there was any doubt that you would :thumbup:
 
Oops, reread (3rd time), and he did answer the question saying he didn't know the source his friend got it from. My mistake.
 
Paul said:
Oops, reread (3rd time), and he did answer the question saying he didn't know the source his friend got it from. My mistake.
Click to expand...
Which was weird since he had the pictures of the original EBay listing, and later shared the name of the photographer and the fact that he had used them with permission. "Permission to present them as if they were his own?" I might wonder.

This is the last thing I am willing to share about this matter. If you have further questions concerning what is acceptable in the Marketplace and what not, I'll do my best to answer them.
But we're not going to discuss the details of our actions in the recent Marketplace stir up. A member saw his account terminated and he is not able to defend himself. So there shall be no further discussion.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Bart said:
Paul said:
Oops, reread (3rd time), and he did answer the question saying he didn't know the source his friend got it from. My mistake.
Click to expand...
Which was weird since he had the pictures of the original EBay listing, and later shared the name of the photographer and the fact that he had used them with permission. "Permission to present them as if they were his own?" I might wonder.

This is the last thing I am willing to share about this matter. If you have further questions concerning what is acceptable in the Marketplace and what not, I'll do my best to answer them.
But we're not going to discuss the details of our actions in the recent Marketplace sir up. A member saw his account terminated and he is not able to defend himself. So there shall be no further discussion.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I only wanted to discuss the points from before that disclosure anyway. I was more interested in the warning and the discussion of his profits before more disclosure of his shady behavior came out than the specifics that came out after that. It's conceptual conversation as I see it, not a specific one. However, I can appreciate the sensitivity and will not discuss it further. :)
 
Paul said:
Bart said:
Paul said:
Oops, reread (3rd time), and he did answer the question saying he didn't know the source his friend got it from. My mistake.
Click to expand...
Which was weird since he had the pictures of the original EBay listing, and later shared the name of the photographer and the fact that he had used them with permission. "Permission to present them as if they were his own?" I might wonder.

This is the last thing I am willing to share about this matter. If you have further questions concerning what is acceptable in the Marketplace and what not, I'll do my best to answer them.
But we're not going to discuss the details of our actions in the recent Marketplace sir up. A member saw his account terminated and he is not able to defend himself. So there shall be no further discussion.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I only wanted to discuss the points from before that disclosure anyway. I was more interested in the warning and the discussion of his profits before more disclosure of his shady behavior came out than the specifics that came out after that. It's conceptual conversation as I see it, not a specific one. However, I can appreciate the sensitivity and will not discuss it further. :)
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that you're asking me. I made no mention of price in my warning. I only made it a warning because I wanted to give him the benefit of a doubt. The Associates became aware of the other razor afterwards, and things devolved from there for all to see.

Profit was just salt in the wound.
 
"I think that's no one's business but mine and the persons who decided to pay my asking price."

I really dislike the notion that; "worth is what someone is willing to pay".

"I don't think the team that hosts a forum should be trying to dictate the price politics in his classifieds section."

I think they should. This is after all a members forum. Do we, as members, really want to grant membership to people who are only here to make money off us as a group?

Im just a lurker, not a contributor, but I wouldnt be here at all if it wasnt because this felt like a "good place to be a member", not just; "ok, Ill become a member so I can scam these people who are conveniently gathered all in one place"...

I may be in the minority and Im certainly not in a position to change the rules but I am offering my opinion as a member.

-peace
/Håkan
 
håkan said:
Im just a lurker, not a contributor, but I wouldnt be here at all if it wasnt because this felt like a "good place to be a member", not just; "ok, Ill become a member so I can scam these people who are conveniently gathered all in one place"...

I may be in the minority and Im certainly not in a position to change the rules but I am offering my opinion as a member.

-peace
/Håkan
Click to expand...

And a very valid opinion it is too Hakan :thumbup:

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
håkan,

I sincerely doubt that Bart's opinion that you quoted is coming from the perspective of trying to make money from those conveniently gathered together. Using those quotes to draw the conclusion about some become a member so they "can scam these people" seems to be totally unfair to everyone involved.

Jared,

I told Bart I would refrain from discussing this issue here anymore, but if you'd like I am open to responding in an email :)

Best,

Paul
 
In any seller-buyer interaction there are two parties, even if both are perfect gentlemen and genuine members of this website sharing the same passion for the item being sold/purchased. There will always be a discrepancy of interests. Sometimes that discrepancy will be minimal but in other instances it will be bigger.
If the associates were to declare themselves fit to rule over people's motives to be a member on this website, and to rule over the price of what members put up for sale, we would soon end up in a fascist situation.
I will vote to close the Marketplace rather than I have to decide upon prices, good sellers and bad sellers.
At the same time, call us cowards of you wish, but the associates of Coticule.be decline all responsibility for what is offered in the Marketplace (except of course for the items they occasionally offer themselves). The Marketplace is just a bulletin board that is used by our members to buy/sell/trade personal belongings. The associates insist on scrupulous honesty. Monitoring that is already proven to be a far from easy task. But we are a team of volunteers that try each day again, to keep this website up and running in the right spirit. We don't get any Earthly awards for that, and I don't think we must be held responsible for the items sold on the Marketplace. We can monitor the aforementioned honesty, without taking further responsibility. But as soon as we are going to rule about the value of the offered goods, we are de facto responsible. People will expect to be protected buyers on our website, and the second we fail at that, we will be held responsible. Personally, I couldn't even take such job if I wanted to, lacking the expertise. And even with the proper expertise, how are we supposed to know what a malignant seller chooses to conceal?
And that is why all members need to realize that buying on our Marketplace does not discharge you from exerting common sense and a healthy dose of apprehension. In the mean time, we'll continue to do our very best at encouraging honesty.

Best regards,
Bart.
 
Paul said:
håkan,
I sincerely doubt that Bart's opinion that you quoted is coming from the perspective of trying to make money from those conveniently gathered together. Using those quotes to draw the conclusion about some become a member so they "can scam these people" seems to be totally unfair to everyone involved.
Click to expand...

I agree.

I tried to evade those conclusions by not stating the sentences as direct quotes; e.g "Bart said:..." and instead using the statements loosely in the hope that they would be read as examples of opinions that could be expected to be held by members on this site.

To everyone who read my earlier post like Paul illustrates, I offer my apologies.
Please re-read said earlier post and imagine the two quotes to be; "just two, of many, things overheard during a long sunny day at the town market"

And as for my opinion of "marketplace control". It illustrates one of the eternal conundrums of discussion/politics/international-affairs/bureacracy and romance.

It's very much easier to point out what you think is wrong, then it is to formulate a working solution.

Im guilty of that. :)

-peace
/Håkan
 
Interesting discussion, this one. Having lived in several European countries and the US, I have noticed a slightly different approach to commerce across both Europe and Europe vs the US. Two seem to play a role here: entrepreneurial spirit and customer protection.

In German, "Americanisation" is an invective, and very much a synonym for commercialisation. Which in turn is an invective in Europe's more left wing socio-economic environment. The majority of Germans would expect an aspiring razor or scale maker to study the subject and get a degree (preferably a Meister, mind you) before unleashing his products onto the market. The look-what-I-just-did type would probably be reasonably hard pressed to find buyers, simply because he could not prove that he knows what he is doing. And fairly quickly, a board of trade and a union would form. This approach is more challenging for entrepreneurs, but it also results in higher quality (standards). Personally, I find it weird how seemingly every American turns his hobby into a business at the earliest opportunity. But a) that's maybe just me (hint: no), and b) it is not a bad thing, just something I find strange, because a hobby is a hobby and not business.

The EU's customer protection laws are among the best in the world. To pick a random example, comparative advertising was illegal in many EU countries until fairly recently. Other areas of trade are still regulated far more strictly than in the US. Again, that is neither good nor bad per se, just a major cultural difference when it comes to commerce.

This site being a multi cultural environment, expectations what to find in a marketplace are therefore bound to differ. I get an urge to scream "scam" far more often than I would like to. Not here, at least not so far, but elsewhere. People posting costume scaled razors outside their designated vendors area? Scam. Inviting buyers to post positive reviews in exchange for free kit? Scam. Banning competitors while pampering your own distributors and resellers? Scam. And so on. As I said, I would like for a board of forum representatives to appraise razors before they hit the marketplace, but I also understand that this is neither feasible nor wanted in reality. But then again, why use the marketplace instead of eBay in the first place? If you want to maximise profit, you either need a large forum, or an auction site (the former being less work, because consumer protection does not really exist unless you use PayPal, or would you care to sue someone in Russia over $130?).

So, I think Bart summed it up well, and by and large, the marketplace here works well enough. I would still make it members only, but that is, again, just a personal preference.

Regards,
Robin
 
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