slurry thickness

[garyhaywood]

I was setting bevel tonight on my dome after dulling and did lots of back and forth strokes on heavy slurry and could not get it to shave arm hair. i then thinned down slurry a little and i was shaving arm hair . Bart if slurry gets realy thick would that restrict the edge from shaving arm hair i found it can and did just that i must of only done a further 30 laps on thinner slurry and straight away i was shaving arm hair so this could be quite misleading and i thought i would point it out. If bart could confirm that this can happen

 

[Bart]

Yes that is correct.

The "slurrydulling" effect responsible for rounding the very edge, is correlated to both the properties of the particular specimen and the thickness of the slurry.

Pushing an edge through mud-like slurry surely prevents it from reaching shaving sharpness. It does remove steel fast though. For repairing small nicks it's very useful, but personally I rather use a DMT-600 for that.

Bart.

 

[garyhaywood]

It seemed like the edge was not grabing hair on my arm rounding efect makes sense as soon as i produced thinner slurry the edge had the grabiness and shaved arm hair just enough to no the bevel was there i hit the paste again and i was passing hht test not as well as before reason being i should of refined a little more on regular slurry but still good out come. on the heavy slurry it turned blue in seconds

 

[rayman]

I use to do this when work with my Escher. If the blade couldn't pass the HHT I would give it a few licks on the crox and it seemed to fix it. Then I realize it was changing the properties of the edge I was trying to create.
Now, when the HHT doesn't pass on any part of the blade, I return to the 16k for 8 to 10 strokes then the Escher then the strop. I do this over and over until I get the results I want.
Doing it this way, seems to produce an edge that has a longer life to it. Do you have any issues with the length of life on your edge when you use pastes this way?

Ray

 

[garyhaywood]

To be onest i don't no i've always honed with dilucot method stropped and i'm normaly passing hht realy well on fine hair 8/10 if not i will hit the paste i've just been trying this method to see if it can work and i now no it can the shave was great of my kropp using the paste to refine after finishing on just slurry which on its own would not be no where near shave ready. Basicly i've just been seeing what my issards pate can do in terms of shapning and i find it very good. I would'nt use this method as i prefer to get shave ready straight of the hone. This was just an experiment i was doing .

 

[Bart]

Do you have any issues with the length of life on your edge when you use pastes this way?

I can't answer for Gary, but my experiences with red Dovo paste early in my honing eh, career, indicates that relying heavily on that paste for good keenness, creates edges with serious longevity issues. At least, with my beard it did. I attribute it to the fact that those edges are formed with a pull-cutting motion, which makes the very edge exist of bur-like steel. Very sharp, but not very sturdy.
Other abrasive compounds might behave differently, albeit I have witnessed the same after hitting the CrO hard (for experimental sake) Great smooth edges, that already started showing signs of deterioration at the end of the first shave.

It does not seem a problem when doing 10 strokes. I am convinced that in any case, it is best to aim for an edge that shaves well off a hone. If you need paste for that last bit of extra "wow-my-hair-is-falling-voluntarily"-sensation, there is no problem with longevity. Although the absolute wow factor is not that long lasting either. Maybe 5 to 6 shaves? Very fine and fragile edges are just that: fine and fragile, I mean.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[rayman]

So here is something to get you thinking. What you did with the crox to improve your edge is exactly what you would do after several shaves and the edge started to lose its keeness. 3 to 6 very, very light passes on the crox and then strop. Back in business for another 6 to 10 shaves.
If that is the case, you were very close to having the edge you were looking for in the first place. Just a thaught....Smile..

Ray

 

[garyhaywood]

I only shaved half my face and i could'nt realy say but i'm sure bart would be right i have had 8 shaves with my puma finished on just coticule and the shaves get better each time no signs of any deteriation at all.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I have just had the exact same "slurrydulling" experience this afternoon, I must have done 10 lots of 30 half strokes and still the blade wont shave arm hair (well leg hair in my case as I have no arm hair left..lol) so I spat my dummy out, rinsed the hone off and started again with a lighter slurry, 2 lots of 30 later and its ping ping ping, Bald knees!

I can totally see how relying on stropping to get the edge sharp enough will lead to a short edge life, as Sir Bart says its a pull cut not a push, and thats got to leave a burr.

 

[rayman]

Do you have any issues with the length of life on your edge when you use pastes this way?

I can't answer for Gary, but my experiences with red Dovo paste early in my honing eh, career, indicates that relying heavily on that paste for good keenness, creates edges with serious longevity issues. Bart.

Bart,
I think, because of the experience we have compared to the others, we tend to look at things more on the micro level than the macro level.
Our understanding of the construction of the edge, during honing, makes us look at the peaks and valleys and how they respond to different useages.
Because of that, in my mind when we use pastes and sprays, we actually tend to over sharpen the very, very, very edge of the edge. Consequently, it collapses when we start to use it. That's why the use of this stuff, at my bench, is minimal. Usually only 3 light strokes to remove the very fine wire on the edge just before the final finish.
If you look at the edge under a microscope after using pastes, you will see the sandblast effect it causes. This in and of itself is not bad, but it does show the harshness of it.
The use of the pastes also can cause convex edges to form, not a good thing when it comes to razors. Flat bevels are essential to maintain the edge properly.

Ray

 

[Bart]

Amen to that Ray.:thumbup:

I haven't called it Paste.be, did I? :

Bart.

 

[justin]

I think, because of the experience we have compared to the others, we tend to look at things more on the micro level than the macro level.

I think it would be great if somebody wrote an article in regards to this. It would help to demystify the Coticule grit controversy. Maybe I'll post a thread with a bunch of noob questions, and Bart can throw it into The Mine. :

 

[rayman]

Actually, because of your inquisitive minds and willingness to learn, I think all of you will be considering things like this much differently in a month or two. There is a natural progression that all the questions won't have answers to. You will see them and figure them out on your own. You guys are absolutly on track.
I have been watching your threads for some time now. Those that haven't gotten off track have been exactly where I was and bart was at your stage of the game. Many of the answers you are looking for will start to come without even asking.
Just keep up the great work you are all doing. I too am picking up some new information from you guys.

Enjoy!

Ray

 

[Bart]

Ray is right.
There will be a time where you lay in your bed between asleep and awake. And you'll be half a micron tall, roaming a trail that runs on top of a razor's bevel. You'll hurt your ankles on misaligned steel fragments at poorly stropped parts of the trail. You'll climb over a fallen hair that overspans the depth of a microchip. You'll see plastic flow and burr-like debris deposits. It will be cool and calm on that summit and you'll know you have reached a deep understanding of Sharpness. That understanding may really have a valid existence in your mind only, but you don't care. Because it works for you. And you 'll sneak back out of bed, away from the warmth of the one you love. And you'll find yourself honing a razor in the calm coolness of that night.

Honing a razor can be that lyrical.

Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Amen to that Ray.:thumbup:

I haven't called it Paste.be, did I? :

Bart.

Bwhahahaha thats ace!!

Sir Bart

"That understanding may really have a valid existence in your mind only, but you don't care. Because it works for you. And you 'll sneak back out of bed, away from the warmth of the one you love. And you'll find yourself honing a razor in the calm coolness of that night"

Thats beautiful, and I know you have been there, once or twice