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Sometimes I`m surprised
- Thread starter torbenbp
- Start Date
Smythe
Well-Known Member
Damn!!! I thought this was a “read it when you have the chance” thread. But it seems to have blossomed into something really interesting.
I have had a few hobbies, straight razors currently the latest and as far as I can see will be so for a quite a while. I have a day job but won’t be giving that up any time soon, my wife would upset (or worse… the wooden stake she has hidden somewhere in the bedroom).
I will occasionally sell razors, but my attitude is “if it sells… it sells… of not… then so what?" I suppose if this was my main source of income things would be different. Given a choice between my kids going hungry or vigorously defending my product, then I would rather have food on the table. However if a product cannot be reasonably defended then I should find another source of income.
But the solution mentioned may be the best. The “Artisan” should not have to lurk public forums to defend his products, The stresses would waste resources that would be better spent improving the product, plus it distracts from the creativity… let the middle man deal with it… it’s part of his job (or it should be).
Yes it would be nice for the Artisan to hang around public forums but I find those folks tend to have a different “mind set”, and may not find “Forums” all that interesting even though the subject is about the very products they produce, (antisocial?) maybe not, but dealing with “the product” for a full working day, then come home to do the same again?... for them it’s not exactly hobby.
Bart, you may want to consider some commercial activity at Coticule.be at some point in the future.
And before those burly fellows in the yellow and blue van show up to come and get me (with keyboard and lube in hand… sorry Ralfy) let me explain….
When this site grows in members, activity and traffic there will come a time when the site will need a bigger home… a bigger home will cost more finances, those finances will have to come from somewhere… and one of the most likely source is vendors with there banners.
Just one or two scattered about the main page, most members will accept this arrangement. However, Big Money is like water that seeps into every crack and craves. Banners will soon begin to appear in sub-forums, older members who are set in there ways may begin complaining banners encroaching on there reading pleasure and threaten to leave, and of course mods will explain “…it’s only in the sites best interest…”, “…to remain free for all”.
Inevitably Big Money will continue it’s relentless march, vendors will want to have a “say” in the direction of the site… just a small voice at first and making offers like “… how about a new “Front End”… “ “…things would run smoother…”. You've taken the bait… no turning back now and you’re in for the long haul, they’ve got you!… Eventually it will become increasingly difficult to keep that “line” where you want it, the stresses will be great as you find yourself struggling to maintain some control of the site we so dearly love….
“Smythe… Smythe wake up, you were having a nightmare…. “
Ho thank heavens.
I have had a few hobbies, straight razors currently the latest and as far as I can see will be so for a quite a while. I have a day job but won’t be giving that up any time soon, my wife would upset (or worse… the wooden stake she has hidden somewhere in the bedroom).
I will occasionally sell razors, but my attitude is “if it sells… it sells… of not… then so what?" I suppose if this was my main source of income things would be different. Given a choice between my kids going hungry or vigorously defending my product, then I would rather have food on the table. However if a product cannot be reasonably defended then I should find another source of income.
But the solution mentioned may be the best. The “Artisan” should not have to lurk public forums to defend his products, The stresses would waste resources that would be better spent improving the product, plus it distracts from the creativity… let the middle man deal with it… it’s part of his job (or it should be).
Yes it would be nice for the Artisan to hang around public forums but I find those folks tend to have a different “mind set”, and may not find “Forums” all that interesting even though the subject is about the very products they produce, (antisocial?) maybe not, but dealing with “the product” for a full working day, then come home to do the same again?... for them it’s not exactly hobby.
Bart, you may want to consider some commercial activity at Coticule.be at some point in the future.
And before those burly fellows in the yellow and blue van show up to come and get me (with keyboard and lube in hand… sorry Ralfy) let me explain….
When this site grows in members, activity and traffic there will come a time when the site will need a bigger home… a bigger home will cost more finances, those finances will have to come from somewhere… and one of the most likely source is vendors with there banners.
Just one or two scattered about the main page, most members will accept this arrangement. However, Big Money is like water that seeps into every crack and craves. Banners will soon begin to appear in sub-forums, older members who are set in there ways may begin complaining banners encroaching on there reading pleasure and threaten to leave, and of course mods will explain “…it’s only in the sites best interest…”, “…to remain free for all”.
Inevitably Big Money will continue it’s relentless march, vendors will want to have a “say” in the direction of the site… just a small voice at first and making offers like “… how about a new “Front End”… “ “…things would run smoother…”. You've taken the bait… no turning back now and you’re in for the long haul, they’ve got you!… Eventually it will become increasingly difficult to keep that “line” where you want it, the stresses will be great as you find yourself struggling to maintain some control of the site we so dearly love….
“Smythe… Smythe wake up, you were having a nightmare…. “
Ho thank heavens.
G
Guest
My feelings exactly, Smythe. But there are ways of dealing with this, unless a site has thousands of users and the traffic that comes with such activity - and the costs that have to be covered then. eBay and other auction sites exists, and setting up a small store front is very easy for a private individual. Neither will cost the private seller an arm or a leg.
Granted, some of the items we, as occasional private sellers, want to sell are somewhat personal. I have a few razors that I would sell on a personal basis only, because they have some sort of emotional value for me and I would like to see them "go into the right hands". Likewise, I have a few razors and strops out in the world that are currently used by people who could not afford to buy them at this point in time. I could have made money by listing them on eBay, and at least two would have fetched interesting prices. But I find that prices are silly enough as it is, and I refuse to participate in this. I was lucky enough to be sold good razors for excellent prices by old time members of another forum, and I therefore feel obliged to give back in kind.
And the "we need ads to fund the site" argument is mostly a euphemism for "we do not understand the technology and therefore need to buy stuff instead of making it". Setting up load balancers or web servers that only provide images (which is where most of the traffic comes from) elsewhere is not all that difficult - you just have to understand the technology behind them. Take a site like http://slashdot.org/ for example: thousands upon thousands of users, but only very little ad space... go figure... :blink:
The integration of commercial vendors into a site, or even into its senior membership, poses more bizarre challenges all of its own. Once you go down the commercial route, staying neutral is difficult. Even more so if commercial vendors with vested interests start playing a prominent (and dominant) role in running the site. It goes with the territory, though, because especially in the US, people who are good at their hobbies usually turn that hobby into money. That is a mindset that is alien to me (and several other Western Europeans I know), and which is sometimes hard to digest. If it were for me, all shaving sites would be hobby sites purely. But that will never be.
Regards,
Robin
Granted, some of the items we, as occasional private sellers, want to sell are somewhat personal. I have a few razors that I would sell on a personal basis only, because they have some sort of emotional value for me and I would like to see them "go into the right hands". Likewise, I have a few razors and strops out in the world that are currently used by people who could not afford to buy them at this point in time. I could have made money by listing them on eBay, and at least two would have fetched interesting prices. But I find that prices are silly enough as it is, and I refuse to participate in this. I was lucky enough to be sold good razors for excellent prices by old time members of another forum, and I therefore feel obliged to give back in kind.
And the "we need ads to fund the site" argument is mostly a euphemism for "we do not understand the technology and therefore need to buy stuff instead of making it". Setting up load balancers or web servers that only provide images (which is where most of the traffic comes from) elsewhere is not all that difficult - you just have to understand the technology behind them. Take a site like http://slashdot.org/ for example: thousands upon thousands of users, but only very little ad space... go figure... :blink:
The integration of commercial vendors into a site, or even into its senior membership, poses more bizarre challenges all of its own. Once you go down the commercial route, staying neutral is difficult. Even more so if commercial vendors with vested interests start playing a prominent (and dominant) role in running the site. It goes with the territory, though, because especially in the US, people who are good at their hobbies usually turn that hobby into money. That is a mindset that is alien to me (and several other Western Europeans I know), and which is sometimes hard to digest. If it were for me, all shaving sites would be hobby sites purely. But that will never be.
Regards,
Robin
JimR
Well-Known Member
My, this is an interesting thread.
There are a lot of good points here, on a lot of fascinating topics, but what I think interests me the most is Bart's conflagration of the forum mainstay "Acquisition Disorder" and Greed. On one hand, I think it is easy to see that people have a desire to have more and more. But on the other, I think there is in this hobby a desire not really for more stuff, but for more experience.
Shaving is, let's face it, a terrible hobby. A hobby is something to devote time to, something to engage our minds and our bodies, and shaving can really only be done once a day (some special people can manage twice. I'm not one of those...). So when people discover it, and realize that it can actually be enjoyable, they want MORE of that shaving joy--you see the newbie threads all the time. "I wish my hair grew faster!" "I want to shave three times a day!" etc. I went through it, a lot of people here did as well, I'm sure. But as that enthusiasm can't be expressed through shaving, it must go somewhere, and so it turns to paraphernalia..."acquisition disorders". Trying and using and seeing what else is out there. For some, this turns into collecting--an interest in the things themselves, their aesthetics and their depth. For others, it is the pleasure of using something new, a love of novelty and exploration. And finally, some people do in fact just get things to HAVE them. They take satisfaction in simply massing goods.
Now, as for greed, I really only see it in this last one. Because enjoying experience, or true collecting, is much more a hobby--learning and discovering is a GOOD thing. Simply having, though, is not a hobby, is not an interest, it is simply hoarding. So "Acquisition Disorder", as people use it, actually stands for several things--and only one of them is actually bad, as I see it. For of course, all of us have more than we actually NEED. One hone, one razor, one strop and one brush. That's it, as far as needs go. But there is so much more to know and enjoy out there, that having just one...well, it seems almost like self-denial.
But that's just my take on it.
Then the vendor issue. This is a difficult point for me, because I do not at all view myself as a vendor, but I am very much viewed as one. I understand that, of course. I sell things. Thus, I am a vendor.
But when I compare myself to those whose primary interest in this whole game is SELLING, I feel a very wide gap between them and me. I am not a salesman. I don't TRUST salesmen. I personally think having severe restrictions on vendors is a good idea, because if your products don't sell themselves, then your products don't need to be sold. Most people don't agree, and so they do everything they can to get people to buy--including all kinds of dishonesty. And of course, when the negative reports come in, they get defensive and personal, and things go downhill from there.
Of course, the very fact of me saying this...well, let's just say that if I wasn't me, I'd not believe me either. Just like with the strop giveaway...I do not at all think of it as advertisement, but if someone says to me "That's really good advertisement for your strops" then I can't exactly argue with them.
There are a lot of good points here, on a lot of fascinating topics, but what I think interests me the most is Bart's conflagration of the forum mainstay "Acquisition Disorder" and Greed. On one hand, I think it is easy to see that people have a desire to have more and more. But on the other, I think there is in this hobby a desire not really for more stuff, but for more experience.
Shaving is, let's face it, a terrible hobby. A hobby is something to devote time to, something to engage our minds and our bodies, and shaving can really only be done once a day (some special people can manage twice. I'm not one of those...). So when people discover it, and realize that it can actually be enjoyable, they want MORE of that shaving joy--you see the newbie threads all the time. "I wish my hair grew faster!" "I want to shave three times a day!" etc. I went through it, a lot of people here did as well, I'm sure. But as that enthusiasm can't be expressed through shaving, it must go somewhere, and so it turns to paraphernalia..."acquisition disorders". Trying and using and seeing what else is out there. For some, this turns into collecting--an interest in the things themselves, their aesthetics and their depth. For others, it is the pleasure of using something new, a love of novelty and exploration. And finally, some people do in fact just get things to HAVE them. They take satisfaction in simply massing goods.
Now, as for greed, I really only see it in this last one. Because enjoying experience, or true collecting, is much more a hobby--learning and discovering is a GOOD thing. Simply having, though, is not a hobby, is not an interest, it is simply hoarding. So "Acquisition Disorder", as people use it, actually stands for several things--and only one of them is actually bad, as I see it. For of course, all of us have more than we actually NEED. One hone, one razor, one strop and one brush. That's it, as far as needs go. But there is so much more to know and enjoy out there, that having just one...well, it seems almost like self-denial.
But that's just my take on it.
Then the vendor issue. This is a difficult point for me, because I do not at all view myself as a vendor, but I am very much viewed as one. I understand that, of course. I sell things. Thus, I am a vendor.
But when I compare myself to those whose primary interest in this whole game is SELLING, I feel a very wide gap between them and me. I am not a salesman. I don't TRUST salesmen. I personally think having severe restrictions on vendors is a good idea, because if your products don't sell themselves, then your products don't need to be sold. Most people don't agree, and so they do everything they can to get people to buy--including all kinds of dishonesty. And of course, when the negative reports come in, they get defensive and personal, and things go downhill from there.
Of course, the very fact of me saying this...well, let's just say that if I wasn't me, I'd not believe me either. Just like with the strop giveaway...I do not at all think of it as advertisement, but if someone says to me "That's really good advertisement for your strops" then I can't exactly argue with them.
Bart
Well-Known Member
+1. Indeed it is.JimR said:
Let's just say that old-style shaving, in particular straight razor shaving, has a huge potential for «geekishness». It holds all the necessary ingredients: gear is important, skill is equally important, and most of us have a daily appointment with the restrictions of both. Because, let us admit it, how enjoyable and rewarding our shaves may be, there's always that margin for improvement luring around the corner. And that means: more skill to acquire, but also more gear to accumulate. So much for the exploration side of our hobby. In this realm I strongly believe in harmony: skill has to meet gear. I personally try not to buy more stuff, without properly exploring what I already own.JimR said:
Then, as Jim pointed out so well, there's the Collector's aspect of the hobby. Also in this field, all conditions are met: many items are (relatively) rare, sometimes no longer in production. They have appealing aesthetics and can be admired for craftsmanship. And, not without importance, we can connect them to the aforementioned desire for exploration.
Yet, a true collector is a man with a plan. He knows what he's after, he knows where to look, and he knows how to await his chance. There's as much fun in the quest for an item as in acquiring it. In my mind, a true collector ought to be at ease with his hobby: he doesn't have to hide parts of it from his wife, nor does he need to seek confirmation from other guys with the same disorder. I believe a true collector cringes, when he finds his passion smudged by the term «disorder». And his heart bleeds when he sees the playground being overrun by people who proudly call themselves "Raddicts", and grab what they can, without any other plan than to grab what everyone else is grabbing.
(important disclaimer: there are gentlemen, who may have referred to themselves as "raddicts", but whom I consider to be genuine and honorable Collectors. To them I ask, were you truly that comfortable with calling yourself some kind of addict?)
I believe that it's a blessing, Jim. Passion dies without anticipation. Longing is an inseparable part of all things worth pursuing. I can't imagine being with my wife, if I couldn't long to be with her when she's absent. I can't imagine the fun of hiking in the Ardens, without my mind drifting longingly to it while staring out the window at work. I can't imagine liking bacon, if I ate it 3 times a day (eh.. well, bacon might be an exceptionJimR said:
). And I can't imagine the virtues of a relaxed shave, if I had to do it 3 times a day. There doesn't exist a www.toothbrushplace.com, doesn't it? JimR said:
But of course, Jim. We're all in the same boat. I'm no misanthrope. Quite the contrary. But many forums (whether they concern guitar playing, model trains, audio equipment, shaving gear, etc.) tend to see overrepresentation of people who are (usually temporarily) on a buyer's high. As such (and I'm deliberately picking an example that not relates to shaving), it almost appears as if an owner of only one single guitar and amp is an abnormality, unfit to join any serious online conversation about his hobby. Little is done on forums to counteract this atmosphere and make the modest hobbyist feel at home. By publicly leaning over in the other direction with this forum, I hope to make a contribution for the better.
JimR said:
Allow me to answer the above quote with a little story. I was one of the early adopters of the Naniwa Chosera 10K. I've read great things about it, in statements made by a contributor on a woodworking forum, in whom I have good trust. I was in the market for a high grit synthetic at that time, got a very good deal at Rasurpur, so I ordered one. After about 3 weeks of using mine and making notes for a review I was writing, a fellow member at SRP bought one as well. He posted a very favorable review the next day, making all sorts of claims that I had no opinion about myself, because I had no idea how to base an opinion on my limited experience with it. And he made statements, that made me wonder if he was even talking about the same product. It became quite a long thread, in which he had answers for most questions. No superlative was spared to describe his beloved Chosera. 3 or 4 weeks later, he sold the stone in the classifieds...
The information will probably still turn up in a google search for Chosera + Straight Razor. But how much truth does it contain?
JimR said:
I think problems usually originates where valid information gets mixed with promotional talk. Even in the above Chosera story, where the guy was not a regular seller, his statements about the product were obviously inspired by protecting the resale value of the item. Rest assured that one of our moderators will move the entire thread to the Marketplace, if something similar happens over here (Robin is correct: Coticule.be is small and therefor we can control such situations). Does this mean that the information will be less invalid in the Marketplace? No, but we trust that people know to read with different glasses when they visit the Marketplace. And, make no mistake about it, Coticule.be doesn't take any responsibility for items sold or exchanged in the Marketplace. If you buy a car with hidden flaws, from some guy you met at the pub, you don't blame the bartender for your mistake, do you? Of course, we do our best to maintain an honest platform: obvious dishonesty will be penalized, and the line between profit (Marketplace) and nonprofit (the rest of the Cafeteria) shall remain drawn. But that does not discharge anyone from A. being honest and B. being wary.
----
Someone said that we will grow and eventually allow advertising to support the website. Maybe so, but I will be retired when that happens. Advertisements are annoying, and in the end the consumer pays for them, in the prices of the advertised products. One could argue that this happens anyway, because one sponsored website more or less isn't going to make much difference. This is correct. The same is true for cars and air pollution. We all choose to start or stop being idealistic at an arbitrary line. Coticule.be was founded out of idealism. We do not need to sustain anyone's family. So we have the luxury of being able to adhere to some idealism.
Kind regards,
Bart.
yohannrjm
Well-Known Member
Bart and Jim,
I agree with most of the points the two of you are making, and I think the variance comes from a bit of a nomenclature problem.
Let's see if I can clarify my understanding of these terms:
1) Acquisition Disorders, AD's : This is a hard one to start off with, as the term seems to be used in many different contexts, even by a single person. Basically, I think this is a fun term encompassing situations where people have bought too many things (shaving related, or otherwise) to properly completely use in the foreseeable future. When you have an AD you'll generally buy a bunch of things in a very short time.
I have enough of soaps and creams, razors, blades etc. to last through my expected lifespan (and more, if they don't spoil or get damaged first). It's no fun to have just the one soap/brush/razor/blade combination, which is why I have more --- certainly not because I need it.
If we shave because we have to (as most people do), then we really just need one each of a razor/blade, soap/cream and brush (not even that, in many cases). Once you move past this point, you're heading for an AD.
As Torben just found out, you can buy a Fatboy, a few DE blades, a brush and soap and you'll be set for 6 months to a year with only the occasional blade purchase.
2) Enthusiasts : These are the guys (covering a lot of the forum users, including myself
: ) who buy stuff because they haven't used them before, or because it looks cool, or even because they were bored and it was affordable. There's rarely any structure to the purchases, and we're just having fun.....sometimes we take this to atrocious lengths - moving on to something else before we've even partly mastered the previous 'toy'.
This is a 'hobby' for a lot of these people, and it's likely that after spending several months posting 20+ posts/day, they'll disappear into cyberspace once their interest fades. They may try to dump all their acquisitions several times to fund their next AD.
3) Collectors : These are the people who know what they want and why they want it. They'll have more than they need, but they still have control over what they collect. These are the guys who'll wait years to get a pristine British #15 set that they'll never use, for example. You find collectors for all sorts of things, of course (just watch Antiques Roadshow). To these people the history, craftsmanship etc. are as important as the object itself. Collectors also collect as an investment, of course.
I collect books. I know what I'm buying and I'll go through periods of many months without acquiring anything, because I haven't found anything worth acquiring. I know what to look for, and I know what I want, and how much it's worth. I still have more books than any one person should have (ask my wife). However, I love all of them. Most of them have been read through, and the ones that haven't are on my list of 'books to read'.
On the other hand, I am an 'enthusiast' about my shaving hobby. I am learning stuff, but a lot of my purchases are just to try something new. I get great shaves already - I'm not expecting them to improve significantly just because I tried a different brand razor or a Japanese straight. I like the idea of shaving with an object that was in use 150 years ago even though I could get the same quality shave with my Gillette DE razor made in the 1970's.
Of course, people frequently go through periods where they'll be one or more of these 'types' at the same time - or sequentially. Some people who are enthusiasts will eventually become collectors, and collectors will occasionally go through periods of AD's.
As long as we're having fun responsibly, it doesn't really matter what we're called, I think.
ADDED:
I forgot a few types:
1) The Hoarder : Already mentioned by Jim. These guys just collect to be collecting and to have the items. not sure why.
2) The opportunist : These are the guys who are in it to make money quickly. They sometimes do good by offering things that other people can't get, albeit at a profit. Again, these types have already been discussed.
I agree with most of the points the two of you are making, and I think the variance comes from a bit of a nomenclature problem.
Let's see if I can clarify my understanding of these terms:
1) Acquisition Disorders, AD's : This is a hard one to start off with, as the term seems to be used in many different contexts, even by a single person. Basically, I think this is a fun term encompassing situations where people have bought too many things (shaving related, or otherwise) to properly completely use in the foreseeable future. When you have an AD you'll generally buy a bunch of things in a very short time.
I have enough of soaps and creams, razors, blades etc. to last through my expected lifespan (and more, if they don't spoil or get damaged first). It's no fun to have just the one soap/brush/razor/blade combination, which is why I have more --- certainly not because I need it.
If we shave because we have to (as most people do), then we really just need one each of a razor/blade, soap/cream and brush (not even that, in many cases). Once you move past this point, you're heading for an AD.
As Torben just found out, you can buy a Fatboy, a few DE blades, a brush and soap and you'll be set for 6 months to a year with only the occasional blade purchase.
2) Enthusiasts : These are the guys (covering a lot of the forum users, including myself
: ) who buy stuff because they haven't used them before, or because it looks cool, or even because they were bored and it was affordable. There's rarely any structure to the purchases, and we're just having fun.....sometimes we take this to atrocious lengths - moving on to something else before we've even partly mastered the previous 'toy'. This is a 'hobby' for a lot of these people, and it's likely that after spending several months posting 20+ posts/day, they'll disappear into cyberspace once their interest fades. They may try to dump all their acquisitions several times to fund their next AD.
3) Collectors : These are the people who know what they want and why they want it. They'll have more than they need, but they still have control over what they collect. These are the guys who'll wait years to get a pristine British #15 set that they'll never use, for example. You find collectors for all sorts of things, of course (just watch Antiques Roadshow). To these people the history, craftsmanship etc. are as important as the object itself. Collectors also collect as an investment, of course.
I collect books. I know what I'm buying and I'll go through periods of many months without acquiring anything, because I haven't found anything worth acquiring. I know what to look for, and I know what I want, and how much it's worth. I still have more books than any one person should have (ask my wife). However, I love all of them. Most of them have been read through, and the ones that haven't are on my list of 'books to read'.
On the other hand, I am an 'enthusiast' about my shaving hobby. I am learning stuff, but a lot of my purchases are just to try something new. I get great shaves already - I'm not expecting them to improve significantly just because I tried a different brand razor or a Japanese straight. I like the idea of shaving with an object that was in use 150 years ago even though I could get the same quality shave with my Gillette DE razor made in the 1970's.
Of course, people frequently go through periods where they'll be one or more of these 'types' at the same time - or sequentially. Some people who are enthusiasts will eventually become collectors, and collectors will occasionally go through periods of AD's.
As long as we're having fun responsibly, it doesn't really matter what we're called, I think.
ADDED:
I forgot a few types:
1) The Hoarder : Already mentioned by Jim. These guys just collect to be collecting and to have the items. not sure why.
2) The opportunist : These are the guys who are in it to make money quickly. They sometimes do good by offering things that other people can't get, albeit at a profit. Again, these types have already been discussed.
towliff
Well-Known Member
Bart said:
I like this quote. It kind of rings true to me but again, it doesnt. I am a very keen guitar player yet I only play with a Gibson Les Paul and a Vox AC30. I have a few pedals but I'm in the process of getting rid of them slowly - I'm aiming to end up with just the guitar and amp eventually (pure tone!) :thumbup:
However this being the case, I would feel more than at home talking about it/and my hobby in a forum, infact, I would feel almost as if a had a right to be talking in the forum as I'm taking it down to the bare foundations of the hobby itself - the playing of the music.
Which takes me down to the thing Bart mentioned - Skill. I believe its mostly the skill of a person in the context of their hobby which defines how much they can get out of it, not the equipment. What use would the most expensive/recent amp and guitar combination in the world be to me if I could barely strum two chords together? The same goes with shaving. it seems like people with "HAD" convince themselves they need a new stone to see how it is - see if it puts a better edge on the razor etc. Yet one has to ask the question - can they use their current hones/equipment to its full potential? I've just purchased #29 from the vault to see what edges I can get off it in the hope I will be able to get better edges than from the current coticule I own already. But I KNOW I'm nowhere near the point where I can reach the absolute limit from my coticule, hence have lots of room for improvement. So why have I bought the new coticule - to see if i can get a better edge from this die to my lack of skill with my current one. (And yes, I do know that its highly unlikely this will be the case - which is why I intend to practice practice practice :thumbup: ).
P.S, I also think this is a fascinating thread.
James
RobertSkinner
Member
yohannrjm said:
This could be attributed to most vendors.