Sometimes words can be like a breeze of fresh air.

[Guest]

Hi, Ray,

There is an abundance of new production razors and strops. Beginners don't need hones. If anything, they need - for example- your balsa hones. So much for beginners.

As for the rest: there is an abundance of proper marketing channels. Personally, I see absolutely no reason to have sales related posts in a discussion forum. Especially the borderline stuff is extremely annoying. Like the one custom soap guy who encouragers buyers to write reviews. The result is a wave of half digested 'greatest stuff ever' crap that does much more harm than good. I hate consumer reviews. Shaving forums aren't eBay. What the world needs is professional reviews.

Yes, the social in 'social community' is entirely optional in my opinion. If I ever need a friend, I'l buy a dog. But when I spend time online, I want hard and fast, accurate, unbiased, and meaningful information. And yes, I think that a minimum word count of 100 per post enhances discussions.

Regards,
Robin

 

[rayman]

Yes, it is true, there is an abundance of production razors today. The ones from China and Pakistan are POS and the others are either right on the edge of being a POS or over priced for the quality they offer. I have honed over 400 razors, only 3 of which were new, so I am by no means an expert on this, but it seems to me that the quality of steel from some of the razors that were made in the late 19th and early 20th century were far better than today's models.

As for "Beginners don't need hones.", I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, most experienced shavers don't need hones, all they need is to be able to strop correctly, a touch up stone and someone to send their razor to once a year.

When it comes to commercialism I think it is just fine. Poor work will weed itself out real fast. The cream always rises to the top and I like to think that is what sparks the creativity in someone else and makes this hobby more enjoyable and fulfilling to them.

Ray

 

[Bart]

First allow me to put up a link to Robin's new blog entry. Recommended reading,in my opinion.
http://cutthroat.templeofhate.com/b...ve-razors-or-marketeering-restoration-dummies

Secondly, I'm going to use Ray's post as a hook for my post on this matter, because he covers all points of the discussion.
That doesn't mean I completely disagree with Ray's arguments, although I do with some.

Yes, it is true, there is an abundance of production razors today. The ones from China and Pakistan are POS and the others are either right on the edge of being a POS or over priced for the quality they offer. I have honed over 400 razors, only 3 of which were new, so I am by no means an expert on this, but it seems to me that the quality of steel from some of the razors that were made in the late 19th and early 20th century were far better than today's models.

POS? "Piece Of Shit", I presume.
That's an unfair statement. Their are Chinese brands that do produce serviceable razors. They're not fancy and don't come "shaveready" from the factory. But the steel and temper is fine and the bevels are OK. I ended up with 30 Double Arrows that I purchased for a later canceled "honing contest" on SRP. I've sold them all (still need to get the last 2 in the mail). They all took very decent edges. Sure: their shoulders can be improved, and the scales can be replaced with something nicer. But none of that is required to have good shaves with them. I've also sharpened more than a few Gold Dollars. Again, functional razors. Worth the price you pay.
Also the claim that brands like Dovo, Wacker, Thiers Issard, Revisor and Henckels would offer razors that are of lesser steel quality than the razors produced around the turn of the 20th century, is against all my experience with razors. I have no indication to favor new over old or vice versa. Besides the fact that on average, my face likes Thiers Issards' razors best. But that's only my face. And then there are still things that meet the eye as well.

When it comes to commercialism I think it is just fine. Poor work will weed itself out real fast. The cream always rises to the top and I like to think that is what sparks the creativity in someone else and makes this hobby more enjoyable and fulfilling to them.

I think that is besides the point. It would be worse if the major forums were being abused to plug sub-par products. But that is not the case. They are abused to plug good products to an audience that is very amenable, because they are inexperienced and looking for valid information. And lately they are also abused for unplugging products or persons that may post a threat to profits.
I personally was banned on SRP, because it was considered a dangerous concept that someone would get perfect razors edges with just one hone. I always was very careful not to favor Coticules over other hones on SRP. I still don't think anyone's personal preferences should be relevant. What I do find relevant is good information. Who cares that I love Thiers Issard razors? But if I state that their "new alloy" tends to easily chip on the hone, and that 2 layers of tape make a huge difference on the edges they take, now, that is relevant information. But my relevant information about the Belgian hones is no longer welcomed on SRP, and it even became a taboo to link to Coticule.be. Which only illustrates the corrupting capacity of power.


But there's more that bothers me with how the huge forums have annexed the straight razor community. Straight razor shaving is for me tightly connected with gentlemanliness. Gentlemen meet each other with open visor and utmost respect at the same time. A gentlemen always makes an effort for intelligent behavior. And that has nothing to do with having a high IQ. Every one can make the effort to type capitals and use punctuation, to just give one example of gentlemanly behavior. But above all: gentlemen control primal tendencies such as the very immature tendency to be acquisitive beyond any healthy reflection. (Please note there is a distinct difference between such behavior and the caring actions of a genuine collector). There isn't a single large shaving forum where this kind of pathetic behavior is not promoted. For me, that completely smudges all the intrinsic values I adhere to straight razor shaving. Obviously I can't stop these greed-driven tendencies that are taking over entire societies, although I am convinced there will be a time in the far future when mankind will frown upon the values of our times, much like we frown upon the decadence of the late Roman empire. Nonetheless, it still saddens me that these non-values are served as the norm to new straight razor shavers that were initially just looking for information. This norm is served for no other reason than that it lines particular pockets. And it sustains itself, because dissidence is being dealt with in most Machiavellian ways.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[matt321]

Intersting stuff Robin. I'm not sure I totally agree, but you make good points as usual.

People have various motivations for participating in hobby forums, some more noble than others. However, it is this diversity that defines and perpetuates the beast. Sure, folks get aggravated by the monotony of newbs asking the same questions over and over. Some are angered by the commercialization - the money changers in the temple. Some are offended by the resident know-it-alls. Others are turned off by the tendency to encourage extremes. Dumb questions, silly questions, personal vendettas, pissing contests, etc. My favorite, overly domineering moderators that enjoy the occasional public beating. I'm not sure all this will ever change or that it should. Otherwise it wouldn't be a forum, or at least it wouldn't be a very dynamic forum.

 

[rayman]

Dammit Bart. I hate it when you come back with such a convincing rebuttle like that, and so fast too. You and Robin make me want to close up shop and retire.

Ray

 

[Bart]

Dammit Bart. I hate it when you come back with such a convincing rebuttle like that, and so fast too. You and Robin make me want to close up shop and retire.

Ray

My dear Ray,

Not speaking English as my native tongue, I don't know if you're only joking with your statement that we make you want to cease activity.
I can't speak for Robin, but I don't think either of us has any issues with people that choose to offer products and/or services to the public. Being a seller can be a very honorable activity and for all I can tell (and I can) you are one fine example of a bona-fide seller. I think the same can even be said for most stores that operate on the various shaving forums. Like you said yourself, poor work will weed itself out real fast.

So, it is not the quality of the sellers that I despise, nor the functionality of the forums.
It is only when forums are hijacked by the commercial interests of its high-profile members and nothing is done against it, because the moderation is "ill in the same bed" (as we say in Dutch), that problems arise. When the forum becomes a means to attract sales in the first place and protect personal interests in the second place, it always seems to stop caring about other more noble objectives. Why is it, that commercial interests are allowed to overrule all other values in our world?

You, Ray, proof every day on this forum that commercial activities don't necessarily need to interfere with your noble cause of helping out members with professional advice, practical help and encouragement. That makes you a true gentleman in my eyes, and someone who's footsteps are worth following. That in the mean time, people will also recognize your qualities as a craftsman and the honesty of your business, may be a well-earned pleasant side-effect for you, but you and I both know that is not why you come here, neither why I asked you to fill a moderator's chair.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

and it even became a taboo to link to Coticule.be. Which only illustrates the corrupting capacity of power.

For the record it didnt you know? see one of my now rare SOTD posts here: http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/shave-day/55063-sotd-sun-june-20th-sat-june-26th-12.html

And Ray I am sure that no-one would be happy at the thought of you closing shop, you do sterling work and are a wonderful guy.

What an interesting thread this is turning out to be chaps, and for the record WSW.com has no B/S/T section for a lot of the reasons that are mentioned above.

My kindest regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Bart]

and it even became a taboo to link to Coticule.be. Which only illustrates the corrupting capacity of power.

For the record it didnt you know?

I know some SRP-members have links to Coticule.be in their signature lines. I was more referring to the fact that guys like JimmyHAD, who used to occasionally pop his head around the corner, and who I've always liked and can't recall to ever have any discussion with, stopped visiting here and almost ostentatious does no longer link to answers that can be found on Coticule.be. He's not the only one, and I know a few mentors over there who rather not take chances linking to that blasphemous Coticule.be.

This thread will probably not improve any of that, but for the record, that is something I stopped caring about when I was banned for life immediately after making this post. After 1873 post made with only good intentions, and writing parts of their most visited wiki-pages, I was kicked out without a single word of communications. I did wrote a friendly "enjoyed it while it lasted and thanks for the stay' e-mail to Lynn, but also that remained unanswered.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Bart]

Now how do I access the researcher's section here? :

By being an active member for a while (there's a not so strict 100 posts rule) and putting in a request in this thread:
http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/131.html

Please understand that the not-so-strict 100 post rule was not installed from day one. We were a very small forum when the researcher's section took off, and all active members knew each other well.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Sorry I misunderstood
what a shame for them too, and heres JimmyHAD a mod over at Roberts forum.

BTW Sir Bart I know it goes without saying, but for the record I have only ever found you respectful and caring, honest to a fault and lots of other nice things that I dont need to say either, maybe its because we are friends?

Oh yeah and you may want to edit the link in your last post to include the "]" after the first "url" ... lol

My kindest regards
Your friend
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Bart]

Thank you doctor Ralfson,

For the kind words and for reporting about the lacking character.
Or should that be the other way round?

Bart.

 

[rayman]

Bart,
I am just kidding about retireing, but you do make one hell of a compelling argument. If you list the individuals who have been banned from SRP, it looks like a Who's Who list of the most innovative knowledgeable and skilled craftsmen in the razor community today.

Shit Bart, the more I think about it, I think I, no we, are part of one of the most elite groups of people on the planet. The right-of-passage into this group can only be through banning from SRP. So Bart, the band of brothers, and sisters, is small but we are the true crusaders for perpetuating this hobby exiled from one site out of fear, stupidity and yes greed.

Coticule.be has actually helped me move to the next level in friendships and respect around the world. I don't think this could have happened elsewhere, this is a great site.

Ray

 

[sparq]

This thread will probably not improve any of that, but for the record, that is something I stopped caring about when I was banned for life immediately after making this post.

That is a sick thread with a lot of polished turd served as wisdom of the elder to the great unwashed. It pretty much sums up what is wrong with the SRP, IMHO. Bart, I am so glad that after your first major incident with Lynn that I remember ("Straight Razor Coticule..."), you started working on this site. I do not miss some of the international men of honing mystery here at all, to be honest. When one has to ask himself whether advices provided by elder are selfless or who's agenda they follow, places begin to stink - and as we all know, the fish always stinks from the head down...

 

[Guest]

Easy, Sparq, easy. Bad language always reflects badly on the speaker.

Besides, SRP is, and likely will for some time remain, the most valuable all--purpose resource for all things straight shaving. Keeping in mind that it has thousands of users, their moderation team are doing very well, too.
To err is human and all that.

I will therefore not comment on Bart's version of the story, other than by saying that there are two sides to each coin, and that I strongly suggest not to publicly discuss how other forums get (mis)managed, lest the same happen to CBE. What happens elsewhere should never be a concern. True strength lies in picking up good ideas, and improving them.

I have to agree with Sparq, though, that it is sometimes hard to prevent misinformation from being spread. But such is the nature of forums. They all follow the same lifecycle from expert group to larger audience, then the marketeers start pouring in, factions form, then some people leave for greener pastures, and the cycle starts anew. The only way to prevent this is a transparent crowd moderation (Karma) with an equally transparent policy enforcement (Infraction System): bad content is voted down until it disappears, and reasons for bans become transparent. Such systems require an audience focused on quality, and a moderation team with good skills.

It also requires keeping focus. Straight razor shaving is a niche market, and I see no reason for dozens of forums catering to the same needs. Why does every forum need an SOTD gallery? The result is, predictably, the same pictures ending up on all of them. Great if you have a self esteem problem, less great for the reader. Why is it always "forum first, knowledge piece later" instead of the other way around? One forum just introduced vB4 with its capability for blogs and articles (okay, my site was there first, and is technically light years ahead, but it is not, and will never be, a social group). Why do these blogs and articles not get used? It really is simple: you write an article, publish it, attach a discussion (this is where a forum can(!) be used) and improve it with the support of the group. What usually happens, though, is that some new idea is posted in a forum (with its typical lack of content management capabilities), then gets "discussed" with lots of "+1", "Awesome!!!!!!" and smileys - then falls into oblivion. Some months later, the same thing happens again. As I said, if you feel the need to share inconsequential drivel in badly phrased form, buy a dog.

The other thing is the underlying problem of forums as knowledge bases. They fail. If I were a restorer, I would set up a blog with a gallery, and let people find my stuff. A Planet is set up easily, as are blogrolls. It really is that simple. But the latest eBay junker, Dremeled to an a-historic shine and dressed in driftwood or Christopher Street Day memorial scales is absolutely not information. It is either vain fishing for compliments, an annoying display of bad taste, or a sales push. Mind the number of "Look, Ma, I turned your front porch into scales" so called restores ending up on sales venues shortly afterwards. Also mind the "I made these for member X (he'd better be bloody vocally thankful) and I can make these for you if you pay me enough" types. If you like that sort of post, good for you. Me, I filter them away at first sight.

All this is highly theoretical, though, because things are what they are, and change is not likely. I would still like to ask for some respect for SRP, not only because it is one of the main reasons forums like this exist, but also because it does a pretty good job at providing information. True, it is not as good at accepting NIH ideas, but that does not make it a bad resource. Rather than bash it - which is always easy, and I could do the same, only with far worse examples for other big forums -, you guys should try and simply be better. Because that is what gentlemen (the tuxedo type, not the cowboy boots one) do.

Regards,
Robin

 

[torbenbp]

Now, I think a group hug wold be just perfect:thumbup:

Kindest and most gentlemanish regards.
Torbs

 

[Garry]

group hugs .. group buys .. woohoo

 

[torbenbp]

Right Garry! Lets spread out love and good vibrations :love: :love: :love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVKCRpOewco

Torbs

 

[Bart]

Let's make a few things very clear:

1. Coticule.be is not founded as a reaction against any other website, person or group of people.Our goal is purely positive: to offer support to whomever wants to embrace a traditional approach to sharpening, shaving, and life in general. The various articles on this website are written with a 100% positve attitude. That also counts for the vast majority of posts made at "the Cafeteria".

2. Coticule.be is a website. Bart Torfs is a person. There is a distinct difference between both entities. I am a very direct person, there is little to nothing to read in between the lines of my writings. Expect me to name man and horse when I have something to say about someone. That leads to a completely different style than the refined blog entries Robin writes on cutthroat. I think both approaches have their particular drawbacks and benefits.

3. I personally don't care how forums like SRP and B&B are managed. I do regret a number of developments like acquisition disorders being the norm. and individual members being expelled because they had disagreements with the wrong person. But those are personal opinions that can only influence my own level of involvement on a forum. No one is obligated to frequent a forum that he does not like visiting for whatever reason. We would be self-absorbed to expect that a forum must meet our terms and our terms only

4. Notwithstanding the previous paragraph, I never consider it wrong to unmask hidden agendas, deceptive machinations and power abuse. It may not always appear as the wise thing to do, but history teaches us that such misconduct always grows to take preposterous levels, while the majority of people conveniently look the other side.

5. This is leisure time. Or at least, that is what it should be. I have distinct disagreements over way more important issues with some of my very best friends. If someone thinks this discussion is important, I suggest he should touch base with reality.

6. Should someone wish to cancel his membership because of my opinion about SRP, please send a simple request by e-mail. It is however not possible to remove all former posts, because that would disrupt the affected threads.

Kind regards,
Bart.


PS I'm not the group hugging type, but that doesn't mean I don't love you all. :love: :love:

 

[Paul]

I'm not on for the awkward man-hug either, but I will voice my agreement here with a couple of things.

When I visit SRP, B&B, Coticule.Be or any other site, I check all other "baggage" at the door. What happens on SRP has no bearing on what happens anywhere else, IMHO (and the same goes for the other places too). Additionally, I make a conscientious effort to minimize posting from one forum to another unless there is a good reason to do so. In my B&B signature, I have a link to C.be because there is a gapping gulf where coticule knowledge could be. I don't feel the same way about SRP, so I don't have a similar link in my signature there. Additionally, I very rarely make "double posts" as is common with some other gentlemen. If I start a thread, I think of where it is most most appropriate and start it there with no consideration of starting a similar/identical thread on another forum.

I'm also growing (for lack of a better term) to understand what Robin and Bart are talking about with the various ADs. I've accumulated various items, and I've sold off most because I didn't want/need most of it. I did, however, benefit from the experiences gained by the various items, and that helps me be relevant when people ask for comparative opinions. My way of combating the ADs is when I want something else (a new experience if you will), I sell some other shaving paraphernalia to fund it (with very very few exceptions).

I'm down to 2 brushes, and just a handful of razors. I'm blessed to have a small circle of gentlemen who request honing from me (which I always provide gratis), so I will keep my coticules. However, I am planning to sell off my Shapton set because they very rarely get used.

 

[Guest]

I would like to underpin the point about acquisition disorders. Yes, I own more razors than I theoretically need. But as Bart will attest, they are all in top shape, and will stay that way. So no harm done. None of them are beginner razors, either. I have sold those for the amount I paid for them or less. Either way, I can understand that people like collecting razors. What I cannot understand is why people would pile up a maximum amount of random stuff, and then make a profit off the backs of a) people they themselves encouraged to "collect" (pack rats don't collect, they hoard) even more razors or b) beginners. I find it an excellent development that both this site, and apparently WSW are free from such behaviour (and, more importantly, the people who encourage it).

Just in case I left a doubt here: I love it when people make scales. I do not personally like wooden scales, but that is just me. What really annoys me is the people who put cheap scales on eBay finds and sell them with a hefty markup.

So, thanks to Bart for providing this venue. It is refreshingly different, and that is courtesy of its members.

Thanks,
Robin