Stubborn Razor

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
I though I was stubborn bastard, but my new razor has me beat.:mad: It seems to have a serious case of micro-chipping.

I started yesterday by killing the edge and doing a typical dilucot, but it took an ungodly number of laps and re-freshes to get the bevel reset, eventually i went back to my EZY-lap and started all over again. After a bunch of trips back, I was still unable to get any kind of HHT result. Violin maybe. After 10 (10!) attempts, I finally gave up for the night.
This morning, I decided to lug out the micro-scope and see what the hell was going on. You can imagine my surprise when I saw the the edge looked like a jack-o-lantern's grin! "Holy smokes!" I thought. I realize in hind sight that I could feel those bits of metal in the slurry. I was experiencing all kinds of wierd, un-explained slurry contamination..... I kept having to clean my stone, I changed my clothes, washed, brushed all the stray arm hairs away. It didn't occur to me that what was contaminating my slurry was actual chunks of the razor!
So then I though it might be worth a try with the thurry, so i worked a nice thick slurry and worked that out, and that seemed to help; looking under the microscope, it seemed to clean up all the chipping, but I was looking for that nice coti edge, so I went back to the coti with a very light misty slurry, and a single layer of tape, and worked a nice slow dilution out again. Checked with the scope, and the darn chips are back!

So what's the best way to go from here? More tape?
I'm thinking thurry to coti w/water.
My impression is that this razor is a little harder than any I've yet come across, so my assumption is that it may be brittle, though the area of chipping is worse in one specific spot.

Word, doods!
-Chris
 

rayman

Well-Known Member
You are not alone in this dilemma, I am working on one currently that has been having the same issue. I have over 5 hours in and thought I finally had the edge, ever so close and yet so far away. I have now bread knifed this W&B wedge 3 times, and still it crumbles.

For me, this is nothing new. I have had this same situation before, and in all cases the remedy has been the same, a combination of bread knifing and adding tape. I have never needed to go beyond 5 pieces of tape, but I do know someone who went to 12. I think anything after 5 pretty much means the blade is toast.

So why does the blade crumble? My best guess is that the steel is not to hard, but rather has excessive surface pitting going on in the area you see crumbling. If you take your blade and look closely under the microscope, you will most likely see some dark lines behind the missing edge. I usually see this on one side or the other. One thing that could also be contributing to this issue is the addition of the rolling-x pattern being used to the edge. I do have to use this method, on this particular blade, and the mechanics of applying the strokes, imparts a much higher amount of pressure on the edge of the blade as it crosses the edge of the stone. With the steel being so hard, as most vintage razors are, and the addition of possible internal corrosion, adding high pressure to the thin edge seems to me to be the more likely cause.

Adding layers of tape increases the angle of the bevel and thus gives the extreme edge more steel behind itself to anchor to. This is not the desired configuration for a razor, but might be the only option you have.

Keep me posted.

Ray
 

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
Thank you, Ray.
It appears to be one chip. I think the others were subsequent damage.
I just had a good look under the scope, and I can't see anything strange about the steel in that area. The chip keeps showing up in exactly the same spot. There isn't any corrosion, as it's NOS, it must just be a funny vein or some such defect in just that section of the steel.

I went back to the thurry and another very light dilucot on the coti with next to no pressure, and it came back, but just very slightly. I couldn't feel it previously with any of the tests, and after cheating with crox and cerium oxide, a heck of a wupin' with the strops, and it seems OK, so I'll risk a test shave with it. :D

I'm poised to go unicot (adding tape) with it if it is noticable in the shave.

Next time I won't wait so long to pull out the scope. All that crud in my slurry should have been a big clue!
Cheers,
-Chris
 

rayman

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you have a handle on it. One thing you should never forget: Sometimes things just don't go as planned, and every now and then you will have days where you couldn't sharpen a butter knife, no matter what your skill level. You are not alone as long as you are here on Coticule.be

Regards,

Ray
 

Gunner777

Well-Known Member
Well guys it could be a few things going on. When some people use a buffer to clean a blade they use a buffer that runs at 3450 rpm rather than the needed speed of 1725 rpm. What this does if your not careful is heat the blade to such an extent that it ruins the temper of the steel which can cause what your experiencing. Brittle steel. There are also razors that come from the factory with brittle steel. I don't know the brands your working on but I'm curious to know.
Also are you setting the bevel with something like a 1000 grit Naniwa hone? If the ridges are as bad as you say then it's probably not what your doing it's most likely the razor. Do you have a way to get a pic of the edge?
 

torbenbp

Well-Known Member
I got a razor with the same problem. The brand is unknown. But every time it`s honed, a new small chip appears. It has not been buffed and it is in almost unused condition but with quite a lot of tarnish. I do belive the tarnish isnt just a cosmetic "problem" but in some cases deteriorates the steel and thus makes it fragile.
As it was a 10 USD razor no further attempts will be tried. After all,there are other things in life than razors ;-)

Kind regards
Torbs

PS. Good to see you again Ray.
 

Gunner777

Well-Known Member
Torbs if you lived in the US I would volunteer some time to try and figure it out for you and for my own curiosity. Ten bucks and your right it's not worth spending a lot of time on.
 

torbenbp

Well-Known Member
Heck,you can have it. Throw me you address and it`s yours. I`m in the progress of narrowing down my favourite razors and the rest will be given away or in some cases sold. Trying to keep things simple from now on. Who needs some 20`ish razors. Not me.

Kind regards
Torbs
 

torbenbp

Well-Known Member
torbenbp said:
I got a razor with the same problem. The brand is unknown. But every time it`s honed, a new small chip appears. It has not been buffed and it is in almost unused condition but with quite a lot of tarnish. I do belive the tarnish isnt just a cosmetic "problem" but in some cases deteriorates the steel and thus makes it fragile.
As it was a 10 USD razor no further attempts will be tried. After all,there are other things in life than razors ;-)

Kind regards
Torbs

PS. Good to see you again Ray.
 

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys,


I looked at it again under the scope, and maybe I can see a tiny little fissure in the steel at the chip. Maybe. It is an ugly looking cluster of what look like scratches, like two or three scratches come together it the peak (valley?) of the chip with a little more depth than they should have.... IDK.....:blink: ....
I can't take a photo of the edge under magnification..... but i did take a photo of the razor.:D
IMG_1465.jpg
IMG_1466.jpg
She shaved really nicely.... I couldn't for the life of me tell there was a chip there.:sleep:

Cheers,
-Chris
 

Gunner777

Well-Known Member
Torbs,

Here ya go. I'll check it out and let you know and also post the results on the forum.

Phil White
121 w 4th st
Salisbury,Mo. 65281
United States
 

torbenbp

Well-Known Member
Okay Phil.
Have fun ;-)

Torbs

PS. The spine wear is some 1.5-2 mm. Not quite as I remembered.:blink:
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
torbenbp said:
Heck,you can have it. Throw me you address and it`s yours. I`m in the progress of narrowing down my favourite razors and the rest will be given away or in some cases sold. Trying to keep things simple from now on. Who needs some 20`ish razors. Not me.

Kind regards
Torbs
Perfect Torbs:thumbup:

I have over 30 and am starting to feel the same way, but they have been loving restored by my good self, and I am rather attached, how the sam hill do you decide which ones to cast out into the wilderness :cry:

Best wishes
Ralfson (Dr)
 

torbenbp

Well-Known Member
Ohh Ralfy...That is a very difficult task. And it will cause blood,sweat and tears.

BUT..took a good long look at my razors. Some will be kept forever,like the one you gave me Ralfy,and offcourse the Tally Ho,regrinded (reground?)by our very own Sir Bart,and the wonderfull W&B restore done by my friend Mr. Ray H. ;-)

Then there is the lovely Mrs. Henckels 77.
And the male`ish Erik Anton Berg frameback.
Joseph Allan XXL,restored.
A Hennes restore

So I will go for 7 razors,two hones and a Dovo strop + Rays leather strop.

Everything else will be given away or sold.

PS. Ralfy,got your package packed just didnt make it to the post office yet. Will do so.


T
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
i got the same razor with my kanayama strop and mine seemed ok qiute a great shaver actauly.i no there pritty old and have been stored for some time.
 

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
Just part of owning and using vintage razors, I guess.B)
She's is a pretty little thing, great balance and shape. And i managed to get a really nice edge on her regardless. She makes for a zoomy, nimble shave. I really like the small size, it's definatly more suited to me than a big ol' chopper.

BTW, loving the strop! Though i see what you mean Gary, about the canvas. It's very much like my vintage canvas, and nothing like the TM I've got.


Cheers,
-Chris
 

mainaman

Member
those Japanese razors are usually harder than the Solingens, you could be getting your chipping because you are using hard stone for finisher. What stones do you use in your progression?
Try something softer like Escher/ Thuringian or a softer J nat.
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
wdwrx said:
Just part of owning and using vintage razors, I guess.B)
She's is a pretty little thing, great balance and shape. And i managed to get a really nice edge on her regardless. She makes for a zoomy, nimble shave. I really like the small size, it's definatly more suited to me than a big ol' chopper.

BTW, loving the strop! Though i see what you mean Gary, about the canvas. It's very much like my vintage canvas, and nothing like the TM I've got.


Cheers,
-Chris
i also love the size it is now one of my favorites . i 'd like to see more razors this size. i'm back at work today criss i should imagine your parcel has turned up .

regards gary
 

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
mainaman said:
those Japanese razors are usually harder than the Solingens, you could be getting your chipping because you are using hard stone for finisher. What stones do you use in your progression?
Try something softer like Escher/ Thuringian or a softer J nat.
Stephan, Thanks.
I did eventually use my thurry with a heavy slurry before going to the coti. It seemed to provide a more gentle cutting action that didn't cause any more chipping. It was only one chip though, the other chips I'm sure now were a result of the one breaking out and damaging the bevel. I could not figure out where all that crap in my slurry kept coming from. Once they got cleaned up, it was just a matter of nursing it along so the one didn't get worse. My only J-nat (Okuda Ais), which I started with, (only seemed appropriate:) ) seemed to cause more. I thought at first it was something in my slurry from the tomanagura, so I eventually used my DMT to raise slurry from my tomanagura and transfered that to the honzan. It still caused the chip to break out and the chunk of metal kept chewing up the bevel. It is an incredibly hard stone though so I guess I'm not surprised. The coti too seems a little too hard for this razor too. I could manage to get it cleaned up with the Thurry, but with just a few passes on the coti and I could tell that that the chunk of metal was back in my slurry. I stopped short of using my Nani12K, though that is probably the softest stone I have.

I'm reluctant to try to hone past the chip as, in my first attempts, it kept coming back, and if the flaw runs too deep, it could prove to be an exercise in futility. My biggest fear is that the flaw at the chip should develop into an actual crack. That would bum me right out.

Gary, I do hope that package arrives.... I'm a little worried about it as the girl at the check-out put the wrong shipping label on it. I went to put the tracking number into Canada Post's website, and of course, it showed no record of it. A phone call to them didn't make me feel any better when they told me there is no record of that tracking number. (WTH!?!?!) I then went back to the PO and was told that the label was wrong, and that I'd only payed for an untracked, un-insured package. She did assure me that it would still arrive though, but boy, I'm sure worried about it. Keep me posted, please.



Cheers,
-Chris
 
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