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Vintage coticule ID

livio

Member
Hello, I received today this vintage coticule , is a natural stone with BBW and coticule layers
not glued. Is a yellow almost in color with some veins. Is a 8' x 1 5/8. I give her a try ,
a Swedish Klas Tornblom, very fast on slurry, 5 min bevel set, 10 min dilucot, and another 10 min finish, and I get a very consistent 2 HHT without stropping.
I have another pinkis vintage coticule and this is feel very different stone. Also I raise the slurry with sandpaper on both coticule just to keep the quality of the garnets.
I am just curious if somebody know the name of the stone, if any . I bought the stone from UK.
I don't want to sell the stone, just to know what it is.
Many thanks
Livio

 

danjared

Well-Known Member
Just so you know, it's nigh impossible to identify a "vintage" stone, because our current knowledge of coticule layers is almost exclusively limited to the mine site used by the sole current producer of coticule hones. There are many other sites that were exploited in the past. Additionally, even if we were able to identify your stone's layer of origin, we would need a picture of the side view as well (and possibly a better top view).

You can also use a slurry stone or the other coticule you have to raise a slurry. Sandpaper is probably the poorest choice for raising slurry, as grit from it can break off and contaminate the slurry. Using another coticule as a slurry stone will not affect the "quality" of the slurry in any way. So long as you are able to raise slurry, you will be set.

Lastly, I modified your post so that the picture shows. You can look at the source of your post to see how I did it.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree with good Sir Jared. Sandpaper can be very very bad, why not use your other Coticule to raise slurry?

It may prove impossible to identify, it is a beautiful thing and IMHO there is far to much importance put into layers of origin nowadays, I believe the differences of performance in strata is not that great, and almost all, if not all Coticules that were mined long ago enough to remain unidentified will do a wonderful job of honing razors, once it's owner has learnt the best way to get the most out of it.

Btw? I would expect at least a HHT-3 or 4 after water, I always aim for a 4 before stropping, and never go to the strop before a HHT-3.

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
I agree with both mates Livio.Producing slurry using sand paper is possible to mix unstuck particles from sand paper with slurry.Be sure the they will cause a heavy damage to the edge.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
Ralfy, do you often get a hht-4 off the stone? I think this is the first time I've heard anyone do that. I've personally never gotten that result without the use of soap. Very interesting conversation :)
 

livio

Member
Thank you very much gents for your fast responses. Before today I don't have a second coticule and I raise slurry with a BBW, but I found the old stone was slower than when I used sandpaper.
I will raise slurry from now with second coticule, as you all suggest.Is not important vhat is the name, just because is a different color than old one make me curious. Is very fast on slurry , after just 20 half strokes the slurry start became darker, and with water is slow,
I have to make first 150 half strokes before final 50 x strokes. For me, as a newby HHT 2 is a very good one and I almost never have this level with the other stone.Also I remember this stone is harder to raise slurry, the old one is take me 15 sec to raise slurry with 400grit sandpaper, on this one at least 45 sec or more for the same amount of slurry.This one is feel
harder than old one. What you suggest for lapping? I use DMT 320 plate.I shoud go to DMT 1200?
I will shave tomorrow and share the experience.
Warm regards
Livio
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Livio, I must apologise if I sounded off hand, that was not my intention, I didnt realise you were so new at this, yes HHT-2 is good for someone starting out, but I find that it is too low to produce the level of shave that I desire, of course it all depends on the hair that you use, if you find that the shave is great then all is good :thumbup:

Paul, I get a HHT-4 at least 75% of the time, TBH it was Emmanuel that encouraged me to push the edge that far, I find that if I can get a HHT-4 on thick hair, after stropping I get an easy 4 on finer hair, and the shaves are delightful.

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
I wasn't doubting, only asking because it is a new standard than what's been discussed for the last couple years...

I get hht-3 off the stones and end up with a 4 on my thinnest hairs after stropping. It seems that the two of you don't really need much of a strop after all :)
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
The stropping improves my edges from a 4 on thick hair to a 4 on finer hair, its still an essential part of my honing :thumbup:
If I was using a finer hair to start with a HHT-3 would be about right

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
danjared said:
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Or it might be overkill :p

I can improve a half a point on hht scale (that's how I'd classify a thick hair to thin hair designation) with leather only, so if I pushed it to a 4 off the stone, I'd not need the 60/60 routine.

For the newer guys, I think expectations of a 4 off the stone is a bit of a reach, and it's not necessary for a great shave. In fact, the standard advice for great success has been a 3 after water before stropping which should improve to a 4 after a good stropping session... I'm not saying it can't be done, or that it shouldn't be done, but I don't think I'll be pushing for that limit. In fact, I'm not even using hht much at all anymore, but I'm certainly not going to start advocating such to new honers :)
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Hi Livio,

While Jared is correct that it isn't possible to name vintage Coticule layers, because we have no information about the mines that are no longer in operation, your stone reminded me of this one:
[img=800]http://www.coticule.be/tl_files/Coticule%20Vault/Coticule022.jpg[/img]
It is one from the Cotiocule Vault, but never got described, because a friend of mine snatched it before I ever got the change to complete testing it. However, I do remember that is was a very fast one and it had a very "outspoked" feedback (that's why my friend like it so much). The name of the layer is written on it in pencil. I'm not saying yours is the same, but it's the closest to a determination you'll ever get.

About the HHT, I agree with Paul. It's just a way to probe the edge, before you actually shave with it. In the end it is you that have to correlate your HHT-results to how the razor shaves your beard. It is only human to strive for improvement, so no doubt you 'll reach HHT 3 one day, and if the razor turn out to shave you even better, you'll probably end up aiming for that level every time you hone a razor. But it is something that should be dictated by your experiences and not by what others say they get on their hones. This isn't a HHT race.

As someone who has raised slurry on many Coticules with the aid of sandpaper, I can reassure you that there isn't any disadvantage. On the condition that you use a decent quality wet&dry sandpaper. I've only once lost a grit of the sandpaper, and that was with a worn piece of sandpaper. It was very obvious that this foreign particle was present, and a quick swipe with a finger cleared it off the surface.

Kind regards,
Bart
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
That's what I was trying to say about my HHT. A 4 is what I aim for with my test hairs, and from that I can get a pretty good indication of how a razor will shave my face, I certainly wasn't saying anyone else needed to aim for that with their test hairs, and never saw any of it as a competition?

When I read the word "Sandpaper" I always see the stuff that woodworkers use, and fear that would make a terrible mess in slurry, now I understand that "wet and dry" is what is used, I can see that being pretty good.

I will shut up now

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

kinematic

Well-Known Member
danjared said:
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there are no "vintage" coticules. All of the pieces of rock come from the same 480 million years old deposits. A few decades here or there doesn't make it vintage by a long shot. Stop buying into the whole marketing thing.
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
tat2Ralfy said:
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of course, I don't think you were advocating a competitive stance on HHTs or holding a penis swinging type of stance on it. This whole talk of HHT-4 off the stone is really new,
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(found less than 2 months ago), and I was just curious how it developed. No big deal, my friend :thumbup:
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
kinematic said:
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"vintage" is just a term used for Coticules that were mined by companies that no longer exist today. It is not the best possible term for these Coticules, as you are correct, the rock was formed about 480 billion years ago.

But "vintage" is the word generally used for these "Old Stock" Coticules, not much we can do about that, I fear.

Kind regards,
Bart.

PS. Nice to hear from you, Kinematic.
 

livio

Member
I sharpen another razor - a old Dovo Fritz Bracht, same results, HHT 2-3 , after stropping
I had a nice shave, not as close as I want but a nice shave. The Dilucot method take me about 30 min. I found out on the last stage, the water is filling with some black smurf.So is cutting even just on water,and fast. Is a faster with slurry and fast with water,is this a good coticule?
I raise slurry with the other coticule I have.Thank you very much for all your toughts.
Livio
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
I think you are doing fine :thumbup:

And I am sure the Coticule is a good one, to easily find out how good an edge it can make, I would tape the spine and proceed as the last stages of the Unicot, i.e. raise a very light slurry (2 rubs) and then do 30 light X strokes, rinse everything off and finish with 30-60 X strokes, that should let you feel how the edge off your stone can be

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
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