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When magnification become too high???

king

Well-Known Member
I need your opinion her.
I'm pretty sure that most of you use some kind of magnification for edge inspecting. Mee too.
So, what you think that best magnification is (30X...50X...100X....1000X).
I use microscope with 100X magnification but do I really need that magnification? Is maybe 30X quite enough?
Why I ask this?
If, for example, one can see micro teeths under 100X and that teeths are not visible under 30X do that teeths have any influence on shaving quality?
 

mysteryrazor

Well-Known Member
I use a 30x loupe to view the bevel and edge as I hone. After the edge looks good with the loupe I use the HHT to finish the honing.
 

mysteryrazor

Well-Known Member
I tried the microscope but it was hard to view the blade because of glare. I am working and honing in batches of 6-12 so I need to take the GPS direct coarse.
 

DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
Hi King

With a blade that doesn't have any corrosion, I don't think a microscope is necessary at all. I usually only use magnification for comparison or if I am having trouble refining an edge that has pitting. Invariably, slow refinement is caused by corrosion holding part of the blade away from the stone. (Uneven bevel setting/refinement)

I personally have 25X and 50X hand held scopes that are enough for me for daily honing. (Peak makes nice erect image scopes but they are expensive) You can certainly go too far with magnification and make it seem like the smoothest edge is still unfinished.
Denny
 

DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
Some of the real scientists here use digital photography/microscopy in the 200/400X range for deeper inspection. I think 75X is plenty for honing. Much more and the field of view is so limited that it becomes unwieldy. I almost never use more than 50X, but use other markers for success at each stage. D
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
king said:
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Personally i have nothing as magnification. If you see your face skin through 100X,would scare.
Your pores will be like caves.So my opinion is, if you like to have a magnification more than 30x is exaggeration.However as i read in the Gotta post you are able to hone perfectly.
Rgds
Emmanuel
 

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
Even though I enjoy making photographs of an edge at 100x, which is about the limit I can resolve, I'm not entirely clear that the information is of much value. It is downright scary to look at an edge at that magnification and ever imagine that it could actually shave.
Magnification has been invaluable as part of my learning experience, but it's not really required. I do find that I can see differences in blades honed on different stones, but have no real way to collate that information, or apply it in any real-world sense. It's just one of those "interesting' things. There's really no need to magnify an edge beyond a useful 10x or so times. Any of the defects that would play a role in the shave quality would be more than apparent at that level. 20x or 30x is just a bonus. 100x or more is almost counter-productive. I just think it's cool!:thumbup:
 

vgeorge

Well-Known Member
John D. Verhoeven, Emeritus Professor of Department of Materials Science and Engineering at Iowa State University has written a working paper on "Experiments on Knife Sharpening". It is kind of a cult classic among knife-smiths. Our Bart too quotes from it and cites the paper.

Verhoeven uses Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) for his edge studies and has this to say:

[li]"Much can be learned by examination of a sharpened knife edge with a magnifying glass or an optical microscope, particularly the binocular microscope. However, the optical microscope suffers from a severe limitation. Its depth of field becomes extremely small as the magnification increases. Because of the inherent curvature at the sharp edge of a knife, the optical images lose their usefulness at magnifications much above around 50x of so. The
SEM overcomes this difficulty. ... "
[/li]

So, my 'new' friend Denny is an intuitive genius.
 

DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
wdwrx said:
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BTW, Chris, I just received a Celestron LCD scope that has no eyepiece and will take pics up to 400X and four times that with digital zoom. I don't expect to change the world with it, but some of your pics made me want to join in a little. The whole, stand-alone package was less than $250, I think. It is much more convenient that the digital "probe" type I was using with poor resolution result. Stand by for pm's.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
I agree with Dennis' first post. You don't need magnification for honing a razor. It's a nice feature to have for inspecting the work , certainly when some kind of steel problem is suspect.

Magnification is only one property of a microscope. Optical resolution is at least equally important. It defines the smallest detail than can de discerned with the scope. Magnification defines just how big that detail will show. Because of these principles you could succeed in showing up a 1 micron scratch as big as big as you eyepiece allows (granted enough magnification) without you would be able go see the 0.5 micron scratch next to it. It would just remain hidden in the blur.
There are cheap 100X handheld microscopes on the market that don't have half the resolution of of a lab quality dissection microscope with 15X magnification. But even that cheap microscope will be enough, albeit it won't be as easy to get a well focussed image.

Best regards,
Bart.
 

king

Well-Known Member
OK, I tottaly agree what you all say but I think that we missing question point and that will be, if we can see some chips under 100 X magnification (I speak of microscope that can be bought in every average electronic shop) that are not visible under 30 X or 50 X magnification does the work for hone out that chips worth? Could that small chips have impact in shaving quality (skin catching, iritation....).
 

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
A chip that isn't visible under 30 or 40x magnification but is visible under 100x magnification doesn't appear to me to have much effect on the shave.
I've got a thread going where I've postd some photomicrographs here:
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If you take the time to go through it, you'll see where I've posted some images at 40x, and at the exact same location on the blade, some photos a 100x. The edge looks horrible at 100x, but at 40x it looks perfect.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
I know that I don't allow any microserrations that I can see with my scope. But Chris recently showed a lot of edges with small blemishes at the very edge, as seen with his scope, and he testified that they shaved perfectly.

So, the answer, once again, is that everyone needs to learn how to interpret the results of his particular observation methods to how the razor will shave his face.

Kind regards,
Bart
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
Back when I was using magnification, I found anything over 100X too much for me, and, like Bart, I insisted on a perfectly straight edge. Now, I don't mess with it. I'm not necessarily recommending that because I do have the rare bad shave due to microchips, but by taking a decent edge and doing a down stroke on glass, I've eliminated most of the guess work, rendering the scope unnecessary for my use.
 
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