A coarse stone to start the job...

[bbr6704]

Hello Gentlemen,

Today's question is about coarse stones : I'd like to get a coarse stone, to start restoration of damaged blades that need a lot of work : for exemple, with chips about 1mm, frown or irregular edge... all the old stuff you can find on sunday sales...

So I guess my coti yould be too long to use for that job, even with a thick slurry...

I'm looking for a coarse cheap stone I can get to a local store, to reduce the costs (this will be a starter, I'll use a top fin stone (a coticule!) after, to set the bevel and the edge).

So, I've seen two stones, I can get ther from 10 to 16 € in a local store (I don't want to buy any japanese or dmt stone on the net...)

So I want a quite fast stone, to remove steel, and i can get one of these two following, I'd just like your opinion about (if someone knows/use one of this two particular stones) :

The "Norton Fine India" : http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=noib8

Or the "Pierre naturelle de Pyrénnées" : http://www.pyrene-bushcraft.com/boutique,fr,4,Pier-Nat-200x35x15-Ideale.cfm

Sorry, i'm unable to find the text in english, so here's the google translation :

"This stone is a sandstone shale, whose fine grain and purity mineralogical allow a rational and perfect sharpening.

The Whetstone Pyrenees operates two qualities of stone, hard stone quarried in the gallery and soft stone extracted in open pit deposit.

The stone is a hard rock vein that the distinction of having dark areas, with more power and abrasive some highlights that are a little softer.

It provides a faster sharpening stone than the soft and will be preferred when the need for sharpening is more important. This stone is especially suitable for sharpening axes.

The soft stone is much more homogeneous, dark gray. It will be used for sharpening finer and more accurate.

Sharpening stones to the Pyrenees can be used dry, but also water (we recommend it) - in this case, the contact with the blade will be a little softer.

Ideal Stone 2 grains 200 x 35 x 15 has one side polished, which allows two roughness. It begins with the rougher side to sharpen frankly, then finishes on the polished face for a flawless finish."

Any information/opinion is welcome!

 

[geruchtemoaker]

well I think you should first find out how coarse the Pierre naturelle de Pyrénnées is. if it is coarse enough I would go for that one just because I like natural stones more for one or other reason. that said I have to confess I have a set of 3 diamond plates laying around to do the more serious work

kind regards
Stijn

 

[decraew]

... same thing for the Norton, at first glance I didn't see a grid rating. For heavy bevel work (like removing chips) I wouldn't use anything above 1k.

As an alternative (with thanks to Stijn for pointing this one out): a
cheap diamond set.

 

[bbr6704]

Well, I ain't got any idea of the respective grits of those stones...

I've read the pyrénées coulb be 300/600, but I'm not sure at all about this... (I've just read somewhere else taht the finer grit could be 1500/2000)

And it's just the same for the Norton Fine India, as far as the grits aren't mentionned by the respective manufacturers/seller of these stones.

@ Geruchtemoaker : My preference would go to the Pyrénées too, because it's natural and works with or without water, whereas the Norton is an oil/water stone, but sold allready oiled...

But i'm surprised that nobody in France seems to know this stone...

 

[decraew]

I've sent a message to a retailer to try and find more information regarding this stone.
I've seen it on sites selling pocket and kitchen knives so I assume it's a low grid stone.


Btw bbr6704, I seem to recognize that avatar from CCC ??

 

[chti_lolo]

Yes and now we are at least 3 members from the 3C

I don't know a lot about Pyrenees hone. I have also read from a retailer website that half hard are 600 grits whereas hard are 300 grits. But they seem to be only available in narrow size no more than 50mm.

 

[bbr6704]

@ Decraew : the same BBr6704

Well, the one I can gets seems to be half hard on one side, and half hard polished (higher grit) on the other side...

So, if it's something like 600 & 1000 or over, I think that could be ok...

 

[TM280]

Hi,

I have used a Naniwa 1000k workstone for a couple of years. It's fast and gentle enough on the edge that a coticule takes care of it quickly (I almost always use tape on this one). Here is a link to them in combo format (in France): http://www.edenwebshops.fr/fr/pt/-pierre-a-aiguiser-combinee-de-naniwa-grain-120-1-000.htm

Mine is just a 1000k on a base, I think I bought it in England, and was a little cheaper, but with shipping, toll, etc., I think that link might be a good deal.

Otherwise, I use a (believed to be) Ouashita picked up from ebay.uk. They are fast, and even faster on slurry, though leave a rough edge on slurry (nothing a coticule doesn't take care of) and a much higher keenness that 1000k on water. They are always brown with what appears to be "burn marks". All in all, great stones and cheap since no-one wants them (but you'd have to clean the oil out of them, and lapping them flat is not something for the dining room table... ).

regards,
Torolf

 

[chti_lolo]

I have also found another retailer website where the finer Pierre de Pyrénées was said to be 1500/2000 grits but they also says that BBW is 2000 grits so ....

 

[bbr6704]

Hello here!

I've got my Pierre des Pyrénées yesterday, and tried it on a work in progress blade : it seems really fast : I think I could raise a bevel in 30 to 60 strokes on the finer side...

The coarser seems good to remove metal : for exemple with a uneven edge, with too important frown or waves or big chips...

But it's also coarse, so I don't recomend it for very hollowed blades, as singing ones, as it could be to hard...

Well, to sum up, it costed me 10€, and I think it's gonna be ok for what I wanted it to do.

 

[Bart]

Great that you went for the natural stone. If only to support an age old industry. I have a Cretan stone (that I got from our venerable Emmanuel) that work very well for coarser sharpening work. The odd thing, which makes it also very difficult for me to write my test report, is that it really behave like a multiple grit hone, with completely different results when you after I rub a slurry with a 120 grit diamond plate or with a Coticule slurry stone. Even the abrasive feel changes completely.
If the Pierre des Pyyrénees is anything like that, I definitely recommend to try slurry creation with different grades of sandpaper.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[bbr6704]

Yep, I think it's the good stone for what I was looking for... but I don't think it has some slurry capabilities... but I'll try to see, nothing to lose.

What I can say about this stone, is that it creates a bevel fast! and a good bevel, so that's ok! (I did 2 yesterday night, in about 30/40 minutes, including working on a frown blade, to reduce the frown).

Then I dulled lightly, as recomended, to strat with that bevel on the coti : still a bit long to reach the hht, but much faster taht it would have been with my coti only! :thumbup:

 

[torbenbp]

For the same reasons as you I did buy - when starting to use straight razors- a rather large and expensive hone,think it was some 400-600 or so. Much too coarse for razors. Then some cheapo chinese cheramicac hones..no good. Then a rather cheap Naniwa 1000/3000 ...the 1000 side is never used as it feels quite hard and terrible,but the 3000 feels all muddy,forgiving and natural,cuts relatively fast for a 3K and does a very good job.If anything else is ever used besides a coti it`s the Naniwa 3000K side.

Though in 85% of the cases my cotis do the job very very well,just takes a bit more time and effort.

Torbs

 

[chti_lolo]

I was looking for a coarser stone which could be an natural alternative to a DMT for heavy works on razor or knife sharpening. Emmanuel was very kind to find for me 2 cretan stones. I've only only experimented knives sharpening on them but I can't honestly comment on this stone performance as I had never sharpen a knife nor used a coarser stone (only used coarse sand paper). As Bart said the feeling is very different depending on how you make the slurry. When I make slurry with 240 grits sand paper it's like honing on sand, when I raise a misty slurry (I find this stone very hard so it's difficult to raise a thick slurry using a slurry stone) with the other cretan, the feeling is like with coticule slurry. Wen I raise the slurry with a coticule slurry stone, I get something like a coticule slurry. When using with water this stone seems to be finer than a BBW...
So it's a very interesting stone, it seems very promissing to me as I can already make a dull knife cutting a sheet of paper (not a wonderful result but: ) and leave a very smooth bevel.

 

[Bart]

I was looking for a coarser stone which could be an natural alternative to a DMT for heavy works on razor or knife sharpening. Emmanuel was very kind to find for me 2 cretan stones. (...). As Bart said the feeling is very different depending on how you make the slurry. When I make slurry with 240 grits sand paper it's like honing on sand, when I raise a misty slurry (I find this stone very hard so it's difficult to raise a thick slurry using a slurry stone) with the other cretan, the feeling is like with coticule slurry. Wen I raise the slurry with a coticule slurry stone, I get something like a coticule slurry. When using with water this stone seems to be finer than a BBW...
So it's a very interesting stone, it seems very promissing to me as I can already make a dull knife cutting a sheet of paper (not a wonderful result but: ) and leave a very smooth bevel.

I've already shaved off my Cretan rock, after finishing on the surface coated with gum Arabic. It is truly an amazing type of hone. If I recall correctly Emmanuel mentions that it was traditionally used with oil, but that is actually the practice that could pursuade me least.
I wish I knew more about the composition of this rock.

Thanks for sharing your experience, I'm glad I wasn't becoming nuts after all.

Bart.

 

[chti_lolo]

after finishing on the surface coated with gum Arabic

interesting, the presence of scratch lines on the stone was deterring me to use this stone as a finisher on my razors because I didn't know how to fill them.

I think Emmanuel is using the cretan stone with water too.


Regards

Laurent

 

[Bart]

Actually, I used industrial plate gum, as used in the ofsett printing business. The stuff is designed to fill microscopic voids. It is Gum Arabic based though.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[chti_lolo]

I'm also interested in your test report but can understand it's not easy to write as it seems different strategies are possible with this stone : dilution + initial state of the slurry.
Emmanuel explains me that it was possible using dilution to go from something like 800 grits to something like 6000 grits but the markers are more difficult to interpret or to find on that kind of stone.

Regards

Laurent

BTW my stone has a kind of faint butter smell

 

[Emmanuel]

Bart,Laurent I can confirm that Cretan hone starts from 800 grit to 6000 easily.Then you jump to coticule without slurry taking a perfect edge. For my opinion using these natural hones,a cretan and a coticule it is all that you need. You can produce slurry by a DMT card plate or a cretan slurry stone or a LPB coticule slurry stone. Cretan hone requires a little practise especially on dilution .I believe edges coming from naturals hones is much better than the edges produced by the synthetics..
Best regards
Emmanuel

 

[danjared]

I'm increasingly curious about these Cretan hones. Are they similar to (or the same as) the Turkey oilstones of yore? Are they similar to Arkansas stones at all?