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BBW Success!

DJKELLY said:
Woodash said:
Just to clarify: I'm not questioning anyone's method or results.

We know that many BBW have very low garnet contents and a relevant question is 'what else is contributing to the abrasion'? Could this explain why some folks have better results than others?
This and one of your previous posts lead me to ask "what is polishing" versus "honing". Isn't polishing a good thing, and can you polish a completely finished dilucot edge, or since the polishing medium is softer than the steel, will it cut into the stone and dull the edge if pushed edge first? (I'm getting even more confused than normal). Is the material in the BBW that is not garnet good for this? I was also thinking that even slate backing might be good for polishing, but have not tried it. Aren't some four sided strops fit with a slate component? C'mon, Dirtman, what is going on here? YT, Denny

Ok where to start?
as far as our investigations show we are not entirely sure if the other components of the bbw cut steel, but we still checking on it.
A completely Dilucoted edge is polished, polishing is the final stage of honing, you can indeed increase that polish and thats what a lot of pastes do when used on strops, but the edges they leave are not to everyones liking, and course if you push a razor against a surface that is softer than steel you will cut into it, and ruin the edge in the process
Coticule and BBW Garnets do indeed polish steel, thats a good thing for us
The slate backing on some Coticules is good for 2 things at least, the 1st is protecting the Coticule, and the second is completely ruining a razors edge, I know I have tried
I dont have a clue about slate on four sided strops, I have never seen one with slate on, and fail to see the point of one.

Thats the way I understand it, and I think that our own Sir Bart may be able to give a more detailed answer?

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr) YEF
 
So, is the the difference between honing and polishing just a matter of degree? I understood that since Crox paste is harder than steel, it is actually honing the edge. I have even heard somewhere that the ink in newspaper is harder than steel (iron oxide, I think) so it, too, is honing slightly. I know you can have a finely polished DULL edge. Thanks, Dr. Denny
 
Dennis and Ralfson (Dr) -

I guess I distinguish between sharpening and polishing, although I'm not sure that I want to get into a debate about that. For me, polishing really finishes out the edge in terms of smoothness and adds the last bit of keeness as well. But I digress....

The bottom line is that, to me, there is only a minimum amount of garnet - the true cutter - in what I believe is many (possibly most???) BBWs. That is, BBWs should have limited capacity for sharpening - unless there is something else in there that is abrasive.

What I did not mention earlier is that there is an abundance of mica (the sparkly, glittery, Hello Kitty stuff), only it is very fine-grained and 'platy' or sheetlike. This stuff is also present in slates, but after the slates get compressed and heated etc. to form the BBWs, the mica sheets become more or less become 'aligned'. You see this as the almost 'shiny' or slippery appearance of BBW. This is the stuff that I believe has really high capacity for polishing. I think probably some (minor) sharpening capability as well, but it should polish up stuff pretty well. There is also some quartz present, and that might have some honing effect, but my feeling is that that contribution is minor.

I posted a table of the mineralogy of my La Veinette and BBW combo here a while ago, and those numbers are in very good agreement with independent data that was collected recently and over the years. I will soon make up a table or graph or something and post it to illustrate this stuff.

Bottom line is from my original query: many BBW have low garnet. It's hard to figure out what is doing the the majority of the cutting if you hone completely on a BBW.

Anyway, I hope I more or less addressed most of your comments.

P.S. Yes, to me Denny, some sharpening occurs with polishing - that appears to be the case with Jnats and slurry. What the relationship is with a coticule finished on water, I can't say...
 
The way I see it is that Honing is the process of sharpening, and polishing is the final stage of that, you can get a wonderfully polished bevel that has a blunt edge at the end of it, when honing we have to bring the sides of the bevel to a very fine edge, thinner than a rizla in fact, it also has to be very smooth so we don't damage the skin, in order to achieve this the sides of the bevel inevitably end up polished to a degree, a polished bevel in no way shows us the state of the cutting edge itself, indeed the edge is so fine that we need a form of electron microscope to see it.

As far as I know newspaper ink is mostly graphite, and it will polish steel indeed a newspaper strop will do the job nicely if you need it too, however a well finished Coticule edge finished on cloth then leather strops gets my vote everytime.

Regards YEF
Ralfson (Dr)
 
tat2Ralfy said:
The way I see it is that Honing is the process of sharpening, and polishing is the final stage of that, you can get a wonderfully polished bevel that has a blunt edge at the end of it, when honing we have to bring the sides of the bevel to a very fine edge, thinner than a rizla in fact, it also has to be very smooth so we don't damage the skin, in order to achieve this the sides of the bevel inevitably end up polished to a degree, a polished bevel in no way shows us the state of the cutting edge itself, indeed the edge is so fine that we need a form of electron microscope to see it.

As far as I know newspaper ink is mostly graphite, and it will polish steel indeed a newspaper strop will do the job nicely if you need it too, however a well finished Coticule edge finished on cloth then leather strops gets my vote everytime.

Regards YEF
Ralfson (Dr)
Ralfy Dr. -

I agree. I would just add that I assume that polishing, in the sense that we're talking about here, is done correctly and doesn't blunt the edge. I refer you to an example that I posted earlier: http://coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/238.html?page=14 (last post). The second pic may or may not be what you call a polished bevel. It definately has a much finer scratch pattern than the first pic and at least the process used to do that was intended as a polish.

And btw - graphite is sheety/platy, almost exactly in this sense as the micas. And that's why they both polish. Actually, on second thought, they don't use much graphite anymore. The pigments in newsprint ink are probably a mixture of various things like Denny mentioned carbon blak, Fe-oxides, lubricants, other crap etc., but they are extremely fine-grained and probably have a similar effect.
 
Spot on for me woody, I assume we are talking about polishing as a part of the honing process and nothing to do with cosmetics.
Any polished surface is just a collection of scratches, when these become too fine for our naked eyes to see, the surface appears to shine, I always say if you got your smoothest shaver and looked at the edge with enough magnification you would think it was a wood saw ... Lol

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
Hone versus Polish:

Both processes abrade material, and I don't think there's any legitimate argument about that. So, we're talking about degrees, I guess. For that matter, stropping abrades material to a much lesser extent.

A practical differentiation point for me is that polishing is what's done by media that cannot abrade enough material fast enough to refresh from an edge that's not shaving well.

For example, MParker762 allegedly once brought a razor to shave readiness with over 1400 laps on a strop. Of course, that's not practical, but it's doable according to that experience.

So, does honing end and polishing begin after the complete bevel is set? Or is it after 4k or 8k levels (easier to understand for the sake of this discussion than trying to pick a point in a dilution set)? That's not really something I can pinpoint. Is it after we get to water only? Does it matter? I think not....
 
richmondesi said:
thanks said:
Wait, are there guys here shaving directly off of a BBW edge??

Yeup... very well too... :sleep:

So just to clarify, are you guys finishing on water with the BBW, or is it a light slurry? I'm willing to experiment a little with the details, but I'm wondering about the big steps. Also, is there a full dilution involved, or a similar finish to a dilucot?

Edit: Nevermind this last sentence! :lol:
 
I finish on a very light (1 rub with the slurry stone) slurry

thanks said:
Also, is there a full dilution involved, or a similar finish to a dilucot?

Aren't these the same?

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
tat2Ralfy said:
I finish on a very light (1 rub with the slurry stone) slurry

thanks said:
Also, is there a full dilution involved, or a similar finish to a dilucot?

Aren't these the same?

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

Nevermind my previous post, I've been working too much! What was in my head had trouble being typed out. So basically do a dilucot on the BBW, but without finishing on water only?
 
Slate is not just slate… Thuringians are slate, for example, Eschers too, i think. Slate exists all over the world, in germany, The backing of the coticules is brasilian, i think(I´ve read it somewhere) and there is portuguese slate that is known for honing razors. When I compare my slate hones to the backs of my coticule, I´d say that it´s impossible to judge how good a piece of slate performs, just by looking at it.


Regards,
Tok
 
Tok said:
Slate is not just slate… Thuringians are slate, for example, Eschers too, i think. Slate exists all over the world, in germany, The backing of the coticules is brasilian, i think(I´ve read it somewhere) and there is portuguese slate that is known for honing razors. When I compare my slate hones to the backs of my coticule, I´d say that it´s impossible to judge how good a piece of slate performs, just by looking at it.


Regards,
Tok
Yeah - looking doesn't always help too much. As far as I know, the Thuringians/Eschers are specifically used as finishers, and from my point of view, the BBWs tend to act more like this, and yet they have been historically 'rated' at ~4K grit (+/-) (whatever the rating means...). I'm not sure that I completely understand that. I'm sure there are other slates out there that have better cutting properties as you say.
 
How exactly is the grit rating tested, anyway? I mean, if they just look at the size of the particles, 4000 might be right. But I think we all agree, that honing is not only about the size of the Particles; it´s about their shape and how they are bound, too.

I had a very interesting telephone conversation with the person from who I bought my la Veinette. He is not experienced with honing razors, but with honing kitchen knives. He claimed, that the garnets of the coticule have a more agressive shape than the particles from the BBW. He said, that he uses the BBW on those knives with softer steel. He also said, that finishing properties have very much to do with the hardness of the hone. I see his point, although I don´t think that a softer coticule is a worse finisher.

Regards,
Tok
 
Tok said:
How exactly is the grit rating tested, anyway? I mean, if they just look at the size of the particles, 4000 might be right. But I think we all agree, that honing is not only about the size of the Particles; it´s about their shape and how they are bound, too.
Exactly.

Tok said:
I had a very interesting telephone conversation with the person from who I bought my la Veinette. He is not experienced with honing razors, but with honing kitchen knives. He claimed, that the garnets of the coticule have a more agressive shape than the particles from the BBW.
Hard to tell - there is no information on this that I have seen. BBW garnets are supposed to be coarser-grained than the coticule garnets, which makes sense as the (BBW) stone in which they are contained is also coarser than the coticule. Whether the BBW garnets are more well-crystalline (sharper, more aggressive facets, etc.) than the coticule garnets is unknown.

Tok said:
He said, that he uses the BBW on those knives with softer steel. He also said, that finishing properties have very much to do with the hardness of the hone. I see his point, although I don´t think that a softer coticule is a worse finisher.

Regards,
Tok
I tell you - there is a lot to chew on there. A lot of factors involved with all this...
 
Hello All,

I have been reading this thread with much interest and have a couple of questions. Using the BBW is the bevel correction being done on the Coticule with slurry then moving to the BBW? As for the slurry on the BBW do you create the slurry with BBW or Coticule side of rubbing stone?

Now back to the discussion on percentages of garnets and other materials.

Thank you
Lu
 
Ok doh kay, 4K grit rating for BBW is absolute and utter Bollocks, you simply cannot compare it a 4K stone, where ever the ignorant person that started that myth got that figure from I have no idea, BBW is NOTHING like any manmade stone, can I take my 4K Norton and use it to set the bevel, and then finish the razor on it? no of course not, can we all now stop trying to compare grit ratings with natural stones?

I can see no reason that the composition of the garnets in Coticlue stones and BBW's would differ in any way, they are AFAIK exactly the same crystals, I do know they are slightly larger (maybe they take longer to grow?) and there are less of them in the BBW's

Softer stone for harder steel, another myth IMHO it simply doesnt work that way, I have both soft and hard Coticules that put a wonderful edge on a razor, and what does "Better" mean any way? easier? smoother? sharper? I simply dont get that one at all.

Lu we do indeed set the bevel on the BBW, and stick with that same stone right through to shave ready :thumbup:

Respectfully yours
Ralfson (Dr)
 
had a very interesting telephone conversation with the person from who I bought my la Veinette. He is not experienced with honing razors, but with honing kitchen knives. He claimed, that the garnets of the coticule have a more agressive shape than the particles from the BBW. He said, that he uses the BBW on those knives with softer steel. He also said, that finishing properties have very much to do with the hardness of the hone. I see his point, although I don´t think that a softer coticule is a worse finisher.
Ok doh kay, 4K grit rating for BBW is absolute and utter Bollocks, you simply cannot compare it a 4K stone, where ever the ignorant person that started that myth got that figure from I have no idea, BBW is NOTHING like any manmade stone, can I take my 4K Norton and use it to set the bevel, and then finish the razor on it? no of course not, can we all now stop trying to compare grit ratings with natural stones?

100% on target. I can only speak for my stone, (no knowledge of layer) but polishing on the BBW side (that feels like glass) vs the coticule (semi-gritty) side works well for me, the difference was notable to say the least. :sleep:


Happy turkey day, pass the blade I'll sharpen it.
Louis.
 
Coticules and BBW's both contain Spessartine Garnets.
They are in both cases duodecahedron shaped crystals. Duodecahedron are spatial objects with 12 facets. These facets are mostly pentagons.

Here a model of a duodecahedron:
doudeca.jpg


Coticules contain a high concentration of small garnets (5 to 15 micron in diameter): up to 40% of the entire volume of the rock.
BBWs contain a lower concentration of wider garnets (10 to 25 micron in diameter): up to 25% of the entire volume of the rock.
Those are the figures for the fastest layers. In slower Coticules, garnet content may drop to 20%, or even less in a very slow layer like "La Veine aux Clous", which is usually discarded for that reason.

Within the blue schiste, garnet content can vary between that 25% and.... zero%. That's right: there is blue rock that contains no spessartine at all. That's why only the blue rock with garnet content is commercialized as "Belgian Blue Whetstone". The rest is used for other purposes, there are even houses built with blue stone. It is mostly the blue schiste that borders on the Coticule layers, that contains garnets.

Talking about grit rating is completely meaningless. If we compare the size of the garnets to the particle sizes of synthetic hones, then Coticules have a "grit size" of 15 to 5 microns, or if you want that in approximate mesh numbers: 1000 to 3000 grit. For the BBW: 600 to 2000 grit.

So, why is it not stated as such?
Firstly because it is irrelevant, and secondly, because we live in a world that is dominated by synthetic hones. And the majority of people in that world likes to believe that: a car with more HP is better than one with less HP, as photocamera with more megapixels shoots better pictures than one with less megapixels, a guitar amp of 100watt is better than one of 30watt, a guy with a dick of 15cm is a better lover than one with a dick of 10cm. Do I need to continue?

In other words, Ardennes would be nuts to put on their website "natural whetstones with grit size of 1K". Instead, they state "8K". A few years ago, 8K in synthetic hones was considered sufficient for shaving. A Coticule edge is sufficient for shaving. So, there's the 8K logic. I think Coticules are better than that, but that's just me.

The BBW stones used to be sold in the past as "Pierres Lorraine" or "Rouge de Salme". It was a cheaper whetstone, which it still is, because it's easier to extract and there's more available. Large bench stones are no problem. It was popular for sharpening all kinds of cutlery. BBW's are considerably slower than Coticules. That has been probably considered in the past as a disadvantage, notably for razors, with their very hard steel and restrictions againt the use of high pressure. In the old days, barbers were not talking about "bevel setting", "intermediate grits" and "edge finishing". Instead, they were honing on a stone till they felt they'd done enough, and then they went stropping. Even J.J.Perret, as early as 1770, talks about strop dressing. He mentions: pumice, terracotta, ttone dust, rouge, amaril, and a couple other known abrasives. That tells me they were using their hone for what I now call "bevel correction". I don't think that it is a coincidence that the grading system of the ancient Coticule companies favored the fastest layers. In that respect, the "Rouge de Salme" was a lesser stone.

I think Ardennes positioned the BBW in the 4-6K region for that reason: slightly under Coticules, their top op the shelve product. And it seems in accordane with the scientific data about the garnet size.

But the diameter of its particles is not the only contributing factor in the capabilities of a whetsone. There might be more going on than just a story of garnets, but nonetheless, the speed of a hone relates to how deep it scratches the steel. And even if the depth of those scratches is not the only contributing factor, it is indubitably one of the key variables in the keenness that can be attained with a particular hone. Slow hones go keener, unless they are so dead slow that they can't make up for what little wear they cause on the tip the edge that is pushed over their surface. In that case I call them polishers. Coticules on water are flirting with that threshold, and BBW's even more.

As far as hardness is supposed to be an indicator of something, I have not been able to find any truth in such a statement. I've tested soft Coticules that were slow, hard Coticules that were fast, and vice versa. I've found any of my finishing classifications (brisk, engaging and mellow) accross the entire spectrum of Coticule hardness. I think there is too much fantasy taken for fact.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Oh poo, my sincere apologese to Maurice and Rob, I honestly had no idea that the grit ratings came from them, of course I hold them in the highest respect, and would never be purposely offend them.

Although the grit rating is bollocks.....lol

My highest regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
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