BBW SURPRISE

DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
When are you experts going to go into how to use the BBW? I got one from Ardennes just because I had already paid the postage for another stone. It is a nice 3x8 inch (you convert please) and just for fun took a Henkels from e'bay and gave it a very quick and dirty dilucot. I still can't believe I am getting what I think is a HHT3 right off the stone. I've read somewhere on this site about getting better results at certain stages with the BBW. What more can I get from the coticule and how? I have gotten the same HHT3 from coticules but only after an extra hundred laps or so.

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Matt

Well-Known Member
Research is still in progress, although delayed - I estimate it will be finished around the end of this year.

<edited>

regards,
Matt
 

wdwrx

Well-Known Member
There are a few hints here and there....
I'm anxiously awaiting word too.



Cheers,
-Chris
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
Matt said:
Research is still in progress, although delayed - I estimate it will be finished around the end of this year.

From what I know Coticule is faster due to a higher garnets content, and you need some slurry for finishing on BBW, as opposed to Coti. I don't consider myself fit to give any more advice - but do some search around the forum, if I recall correctly Ralfy was posting several results of BBW honing.

regards,
Matt
That's in the researchers mess, unless I'm mistaken :blush:
 

Matt

Well-Known Member
Umphh, have I spilled the beans? :scared: I'm sure it was openly discussed quite a time ago...? :blush:

Paul I edited my post, but you quoted my entire slip. :|

Matt
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
Ah, it's not a big deal. I was just saying that he'll be looking for a while trying to find Ralfy's results :p
 

DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
I guess I'll just have to do a little more research on my own. Personally, it was so quick and easy, it makes me think I have been using a little too much pressure on the coticule. I did hit a quick thirty strokes on my finisher and it did not back up any. Sounds like all you guys in the lab want it perfect before you release your findings to the coticule.be public. Eagerly awaiting your results.
 

Paul

Well-Known Member
DJKELLY said:
I guess I'll just have to do a little more research on my own. Personally, it was so quick and easy, it makes me think I have been using a little too much pressure on the coticule. I did hit a quick thirty strokes on my finisher and it did not back up any. Sounds like all you guys in the lab want it perfect before you release your findings to the coticule.be public. Eagerly awaiting your results.
You're correct in your assumption. Unlike many other sites, we prefer to not put out information about techniques with these natural stones until we have some solid research and findings. This allows for the researchers to all gain experience with the techniques, make sure they work, and have a broad base of support (for new users) prior to throwing it out there for general consumption. It will help to ensure that as new people try the techniques, they have a better chance of success, and it also helps them know that there has been extensive testing and any frustrations are likely part of a learning curve instead of one or a few nutjobs just putting out bad information. :D

Regarding your observations. You are quite right. BBWs are generally faster and able to reach a better level of keenness than a Coticule on slurry, but finishing it out and getting a nice shaving edge has been difficult. We have been working on a way to bridge the gap and utilize the BBW for the entire process just like with a coticule. For more preliminary information, check out Bart's excellent article found in the FAQ section of this site under "The Information Mine" tab:
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DJKELLY

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info. I must be more of a noobie than I thought with coticules in that I reached a better edge off the BBW. I did hit it with 30 laps on a coticule finisher and shaved pretty well right off the stone. I stropped it just ten times on linen and forty on leather and had a great shave. I will shut up and wait, but this is really interesting and makes me realize how much more I have to learn about my cotie technique.
 
I had the same experience this evening.

50 laps bbw+slurry: it was popping hair like crazy
then 50 laps coticule+water : seems like the edge has mellowed and sometimes would 'split' hairs instead of slice in two.

This is my first experience with my coticule, it really does seem slow. During the half-stroke dilicot procedure, it took a while to produce any gray.
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
The various rumors about the suitability of BBW for razor honing caught my attention. Furthermore I bought a large BBW for my kitchen knives during the coti weekend. In the meantime I have put two japanese blades on that hone and I have to say that the results are really outstanding!
So, as curiousity killed the cat it made me get to work yesterday evening. I did a full dilucot on my new La Dressante. As usual, I was not satisfied with the HHT (yes, the avid forum reader will know that I have a competition problem ;) ). So I pulled one of my vintage combos that has the pink spots in the blue side. I taped the spine and did about 30 passes on water only. According to the acknowledged "theory" of honing mechanics this shuld have put a pure BBW edge on the cutting edge of the blade. HHT had increased dramatically to a solid 3. After stropping it increased more but since it already was quite hight there was not that much room for improvement. By all applicaple standards that razor was sharp, period.
This morning I had a flawless shave with that razor. Not the absolute best I ever had but that has many influencing factors as we all know. I will repeat this trial 1:1 but I will substitute the BBW with my belowed Naniwa SS 10000 in order to get a base for qualitative comparison of the shaves. Keep you posted ...

Cheers
BlueDun
 

Tok

Well-Known Member
Hello,

Until now, I just have two small No.7 bouts that are not so great to make the whole work on them, so I revisited my BBW (20x6cm), made some kind of dilucot on it, until I was able to slice a Hair (HHT 2, I guess) and moved on to one of the bouts and gave it some strokes (I don´t know how much exactly, maybe about 80. The stone is just 8cm long, though.), water only.
--> One of the best shaves I had so far. Another razor didn´t really work that well, but this one is hard to hone. I tried several things on several stones. Unicot with BBW first and Coticule right before and after taping made it shave; not great, but still…

Regards,
Tok
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
Ok, here's the update on my little BBW test.
I did as said above. Bevel setting and dilution until I heard the violin play. Then I put on the tape an got my SS 10000 wet. Naturally, the SS 10000 performed quite differently than the BBW. Quite quickly I could see the highly polished thin edge apear. With the WWB the visible effect on the edge was much less apparent. On the other hand it took more strokes with the SS 10000 until the HHT was somwhere around a 2. I decided to stop at that point and did some passes on my self made CrOx strop. Then onto the linen and leather as final step. Compared to the BBW edge the HHT was not quite up there but still on a solid 3.
The shave was different. With the SS edge it was definitely closer, the razor just seemed sharper, although the HHT suggested something else. On the other hand, my skin got noticeably more irritated.
That's a hard call now.... Did the BBW irritate my skin less bacause the razor simply was less sharp? Or would this effect persist with equally sharp edges? I dunno ... We know that an edge can be too sharp to make a comfortable shave. So maybe it's just the old trade-off beween keenness and smoothness on the skin.
Too many questions for a simple mind like me and therefore I decided to wait for the reserach team to come up with their findings about the BBW.

Cheers
BlueDun
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
Because the research team seems to intentionally hold back their data and leave us struggling honers in the dark I decided to move on despite my above announcement to refrain from any further work with my BBW .. ;) ;) ;)

But seriously, I got a tip from a member in another forum (thank you, Michael :thumbup: ) that made me give it another try. Actually a quite simple thing. I started on 1k and went to 3k until I had a smooth and uniform bevel. Then I did 3 sets of half strokes on water only with moderate pressure. At that point the bevel had turned from the sandblasted apperance after the 3k to a nice polished shine with a straight edge. HHT not possible yet. Afte a set of about 30 light X-strokes on water HHT was easy along the complete length of the blade. Another 20 x-strokes and hairs were popping like crazy. It is really amazing how fast these BBW are even on plain water. Due to the color of the rock the discoloration of the water does not show which I think leads to the missconception of them being slow. Not true!

So after linen and leather the HHt again suggested an extremely keen edge. The shave was better than after the first trial. Still, I have had closer shaves. On the other hand the lack of skin irritation did persist. Obviously, I did not use my best razor for these tests. But at this point I might pull out one of my better blades and do a set of comparative runs with this method against other finishers and honing procedures.

Cheers
BlueDun
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
Because the research team seems to intentionally hold back their data and leave us struggling honers in the dark I decided to move on despite my above announcement to refrain from any further work with my BBW .. ;) ;) ;)

But seriously, I got a tip from a member in another forum (thank you, Michael :thumbup: ) that made me give it another try. Actually a quite simple thing. I started on 1k and went to 3k until I had a smooth and uniform bevel. Then I did 3 sets of half strokes on water only with moderate pressure. At that point the bevel had turned from the sandblasted apperance after the 3k to a nice polished shine with a straight edge. HHT not possible yet. After a set of about 30 light X-strokes on water HHT was easy along the complete length of the blade. Another 20 x-strokes and hairs were popping like crazy. It is really amazing how fast these BBW are even on plain water. Due to the color of the rock the discoloration of the water does not show which I think leads to the missconception of them being slow. Not true!

So after linen and leather the HHt again suggested an extremely keen edge. The shave was better than after the first trial. Still, I have had closer shaves. On the other hand the lack of skin irritation did persist. Obviously, I did not use my best razor for these tests. But at this point I might pull out one of my better blades and do a set of comparative runs with this method against other finishers and honing procedures.

Cheers
BlueDun
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
I'll give you some unconfirmed tips then :) :

Don't take what the razor rubs off the surface for all steel. As you probably noticed by now while rubbing with the slurry stone, BBW's generally release slurry more easily than the average Coticule. But even then, based on what I have found so far, I don't recommend only water. Try rubbing the BBW twice with the slurry stone before finishing. You will feel the difference while honing.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
Gave it a try, failed, tried again, failed again .. me simply stupid are ... as you quite know
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In a nutshell: Bevel setting on 1k/3k. BBW with one rub of slurry stone. Half strokes, X-strokes for finishing. Hazy edge, never got close to HHT. Washed off the slurry, X-strokes on plain water. Higher polish on the edge, effortless HHT. Went back, gave it one rub with slurry stone and then x-strokes. Hazy edge, keenness stepped back, HHT not possible anymore. Washed off slurry, x-strokes on plain water, HHT back again. Gave up and grabed a beer ...

Cheers
BlueDun
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
That's the reverse of my outcome with the 5 BBW's I have. I loose the HHT on a BBW with water. But that's not the end of it. The edges shaved clearly not as good, either.
On the other hand, I have an unfinished experiment on the backburner, using a hemp strop that's pasted with BBW slurry. It kills the HHT, but shaves like a dream.

Now I'm going to shut up and make an attempt to fix this leak... Watch me.

Bart.
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
That IS strange...
There's always a chance that I screwed up, but in this case I'm pretty confident in what I've done. So I may try with another BBW. This test was done on the huge slab I bought from Maurice for use with my kitchen knives. I do have another smaller one I picked from the pile in front of Ardennes. And I have two more which are my vintage combos.
Interstingly enough, the two vintage ones look a little bit different than the two new ones. They seem slightly darker and more homogeneous. I'll try to make pictures - but only after my vacation. One week Amalfi Coast ahead of me .... YES!!!

Cheers
BlueDun
 
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