ShavingUniverse.com

Register a free account now!

If you are registered, you get access to the members only section, can participate in the buy & sell second hand forum and last but not least you can reserve your preferred username before someone else takes it.

Controversial straight razor sharpening technique

danjared said:
I agree that his sense of humor is great, and he certainly knows how to sharpen using his way.

However, I see his argument concerning stropping on a hanging strop as a straw man argument. I'm pretty sure that anyone that tries stropping that way using a razor instead of a candle would end up with both a rolled edge and two strops instead of one, if you know what I mean. I'd like to see him do his demonstration using proper stropping technique.

Also, I'm not sure about his "scientifically based" explanation of edge-leading versus edge-trailing. It's easy to get hung up on certain details and ignore others. Regardless, edge-trailing works well, as he has demonstrated. And interestingly enough, edge-leading works well too. :)

And by the way, I have neither a mustache nor goatee.

I was going to mention he flawed argument against stropping on a hanging strop, and I'm not sure either about his explanation on the edge-leading. They both work in their own way, I guess.

I also noticed how he was discrediting certain aspects by playing the 'tradition' card, but then used japanese manmade waterstone and canned cream. I don't have a problem with it, I just think it's a tad inconsistent.

He had some sort of point on against the using of tape ("you'll go against how the razor was designed"), it caused me some pondering. I have no idea about manufacturers exactness and consideration for edge (bevel) angle at the very tip. And I am vain, so I use tape, it works for me.



I would also like to throw in that I don't know how accessible straight razors were for the common man in the 1700's :rolleyes:

Oh, and that I have a moustache that runs down the sides of my chin. Now talk to me about a learning curve about the chin. 'Spike point' is all I'll say:p
 
I have to admit when I saw that first video where he was removing the burr with a piece of wood, I cringed a little bit, but as we all know, there are many ways to skin a cat. Some are more traditional, some not so.

I also understand his point about using tape all the time. It just makes sense that if you prevent any wear on the spine, that the angle WILL change on the cutting edge at some point. The only times I will use a piece of tape is if I want to do a Unicot and put that secondary edge on the razor.

As a barber, he's right, the true test areas on your face are the moustache and goatee areas. The hair shafts in those areas (if you look at a cross section of the hair) are more OVAL shaped than CIRCULAR. So cutting one of those hairs is more difficult with an edge that isn't up to par.

I heard him say that after setting the bevel, he proceeds to edge trailing, and I don't think I can disagree that it works, but I believe the reason we DON'T do that (correct me if I'm wrong please :) ) is that it increases the chances of over-doing the edge that could result in a piece of the edge coming off.

The stropping part makes sense as well, but also as a barber, trained in the traditional razor honing techniques ( :rolleyes: ) if you put too much pressure on the razor as you are stropping on a traditional leather strop, or have too much slack in that strop, then of course you will roll your edge. I'm sure we've all done it at some point as developed our technique.

I'm a blade person as well. I have sharpened my own knives for a LONG time, and always strive for that edge that will cut arm hair. Not that I would ever really shave with one, but I want to get the best edge possible.

I'm not sure why I decided to write/post this, guess I just wanted to throw it out there LOL
 
I defended his approach in the first video, but if that second video shows something, it's that Mr. Carter only has a limited understanding of sharpening. Considering that he's a bit too obviously seeking self-promotion (the opening sequence of the video is so undeniably preconcstructed that it becomes pathetic), I 'm really not sure that he deserves the attention he had on at least four different shaving forums.

Hence I'm not going to spend too much attention on Carter, but will address some "facts".

1. edge leading vs edge trailing sharpening.

It is an erroneous oversimplification to think about sharpening as merely the result of abrasion. Abrasion can be defined as materlal removal, in our case caused by a scraping action of sharpening stone particles that are harder than steel. This scraping causes grooves. The removed material ends up as debris on top of the hone. Usually it goes in suspension in the water (or whatever fluid) we use.

If sharpening was just that, it would be easy to understand. When two corrugated surfaces meet, their edge is a sawtooth line formed by both superimposed groove patterns. Make the grooves shallower and you'll get a cleaner edge line, Make the grooves less wide, and you'll get finer teeth. It would not matter if both bevel surfaces were created in edge leading of edge trailing direction, because contrary to what Carter states in his video, the particles of the hone do not protrude beyond the depth of the grooves. If the particles were higher, the grooves would simply be deeper. It is the reason why sharpening usually works with different grits. Deeper grooves mean: more steel removal.

But there is more going on than merely abrasion. Not all the scraped steel loosens and ends up in the puddle of fluid on top of the hone. Especially, but not exclusively, near the end of each groove, part of the scraped steel "shavings" remain attached to the steel body we're sharpening. This process is called: burr formation. Knife sharpeners typically use their fingers to feel for the presence of burs at the tip of the bevel. They read it as proof that both bevel planes are actually meeting up with each other. And they usually try to knock off these burs by dragging the edge through a piece of wood, or by reducing them on a bench strop loaded with a very fine sharpening paste. It is also the reason why sharpening is considered to be better done in edge leading direction. Professor Verhoeven of the Iowa State University compared bur formation near the bevel tip in both edge leading and edge trailing directions, and he could confirm what most sharpeners already observed. Bur formaton is more apparent in the edge trailing direction. It is by many (including myself) believed, that edges that are made from primarily bur-like material, are more prone to chip during use and tend to dull prematurely.

Another factor in sharpening is called "plastic flow". This is somewhat related to burr formation, and more closely related to burnishing (read about plastic deformation and burnishing)
At the sub micron level (a shaving edge has a tip radius of 0.5 micron and less), plastic flow become increasingly more important in the shaping of the edge. It is also the most probable cause for Verhoeven's observation that inspite of abraded grooves, the edges he photographed with scanning electron microscopy were not as toothed as the principles of abrasion would dictate.
Which brings us at paragraph 2.

2. Do not rely on macroscopic emulation to understand the micro-physics of sharpening.
While it can be fun to grate cheese in a bevel shape and rub candles over a leather belt, it is very unlikely that such actions will predict anything about sharpening hardened steel. Not only because different materials behave differently, but because even the same material will behave differently at atomary level than at larger scale simulations. Even if we could build a razor on a 100X larger scale, stropping that razor on a 100X larger strop would not mean that we would get a 100X better view on what's actually going on during stropping.
Which brings us at 3.

3. Stropping on leather = not stropping on pasted leather.
Stropping on leather probably relies on 100% burnishing. Verhoeven found no evidence of significant abrasion in clean leather, while he observed ample abrasion when the strop was pasted with Chromium Oxide. Someone once argumented that one can remove burs with a leather belt, but grabbing a bur and breaking it off is not the same as abrading a bur.
It also struck me how Carter did not strop the candle at all. He actually rolled it over the edge. It's easy to disproof the usefulness of a hanging strop by using it in a way it should't be used at all.

4. Tape is not traditional.
It really is not. But something not being traditional is only a valid argument for those who want to stick close to tradition. There was a time when full-hollow grinding of razors was "not traditional". I am glad someone decided the fuck with tradition.

5. Razors wear uneven when sharpened with or without tape.
Carter forgat to mention that tape can be used to create a secondary bevel late in the sharpening process. As such it won't have much influence on preventing the spine to wear "as it should".
But even then, or when no tape is ever used, it is far too easy to assume that both the spine and the blad are going to wear at a rate that keeps the bevel angle constant. Let's consider some facts: A. the spine is heavier than the edge. B. the hand applies pressure at the tang, which is directly connected with the spine and only indirectly to tthe edge. C. Rockwell testing of a small collection of straight razors
revealed that several of them were softer at the spine. (It has been specualted that during the quenching, the spine with its greater mass cools more slowly than the thin blade)
Those three facts all indicate that the spine may very well wear faster than the edge bevel. But even if the sharpener tries to counteract by applying torque while honing, who dares to say that he can balance the applied pressure with such great precision, and can do that for each razor's individual needs?
Furthermore, should the spine be proven too thick at some point in the lifespan of the razor, it is easy to tape the edge, and grind the spine a bit thinner on a coarser hone. The opposite however, is not so easy to remedify. Not that I wish to advocate the use of tape for all honing. But to criticize tape with the arguments Carter used, is no display of 3000$ worth of knowledge.

6. Flat bevel vs convex bevel.
As already mentioned a cutting edge can be described as the line where 2 surfaces meet. We call that geometric shape "the bevel". Whether the surfaces are flat, convex or even concave, is of no real consequence. It only results in a different angle at which both surfaces meet each other. We could theoretically sharpen a razor on a hone with a hollow radius. The resulting bevel would be arc-shaped (convex), but it can be just as keen as a flat bevel created on a flat hone. Honing with pasted strops actually achieve just that, and the loom strop is created as a sharpening tools that allows good control over the tension, hence over the curve of the strop.
The more or less official sharpening methods of Dovo (Germany) and Thiers Issard (France), rely on the use of pasted strops, and also Maestro Livi (Italy) uses and sells his own make of loom strop for that purpose. If these manufacturers have designed their blades with such great care as Carter assumes, it is only fair to assume that they've established their ideal angles with their particular methods of sharpening. Convex bevels having a bit wider angle than flat bevels, a layer of tape add to the spine may be closer to the intended angle for honing on flat stones. Not that I think it matters, because nothing indicates that these manufacturers are so strict about the design of their razors. Something that centers around 17 degrees plus or minus 3 degrees, is what we found a few years ago during a survey of measuring bevel angles on a wide variety of razors.

In conclusion, I personally don't care for Mr. Carter's sharpening methods. I have no doubt that they work for his intended purposes. It is great that he shares and documents his procedures, so that those interested can try to reproduce his results.
But once something is shared publicly, one must also accept that it may be criticized publicly. As long as the discussion is conducted with honest arguments, it can only serve the greater good.

Bart.
 
Emmanuel said:
Straight razor shave without shaving brush its like to make love without a woman.
Best regards
Emmanuel

Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long time my friend lol

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
tat2Ralfy said:
Emmanuel said:
Straight razor shave without shaving brush its like to make love without a woman.
Best regards
Emmanuel

Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long time my friend lol

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

Yes sir, that is very funny. :lol: In fact with your permission Emmanuel I may steal it and use it as a signature.
 
Pebcak said:
tat2Ralfy said:
Emmanuel said:
Straight razor shave without shaving brush its like to make love without a woman.
Best regards
Emmanuel

Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long time my friend lol

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

Yes sir, that is very funny. :lol: In fact with your permission Emmanuel I may steal it and use it as a signature.

Of coarse you can.
Best regards
Emmanuel
 
To borrow from Mel Brook's 'Young Frankenstein':

Heresy is an ugly thing. And I think its about time we had some. :D

4 pages and no one has tested and reported back. I guess someone's gotta be the heretic.

All I did was try the newspaper over a flat stone. 4 blades. 3 recently honed, the 4th was a wacker needing a touch up.

'Tried from 5 - 70 strokes. I hone w/ one layer of thin (.009") tape. Stropping was done w/out tape. Each blade, tested by modest wtg stroke, dry. felt like an improvement in the edge. I will test the wacker in a full shave today. It received the 70 strokes.

Another US blade (Crown Razor, Boston) got refinished, ending w/ 30 strokes. It will have the regular shave test also today.

**Emmanuel - you're humor is as good as your graciousness. Thank You!**
 
pinklather said:
To borrow from Mel Brook's 'Young Frankenstein':

Heresy is an ugly thing. And I think its about time we had some. :D

4 pages and no one has tested and reported back. I guess someone's gotta be the heretic.

If you look over this thread, I think you'll find little if any doubt that this honing method works. In fact, the disagreement is really about the other things he says, namely Murray Carter's statements concerning other ways to hone.
 
Heretic or not. Let's battle the lack of science based truth in this whole discussion with further facts.

I happen to work in the newspaper printing industry.

Newspaper is very simple paper. No significant abrasion. Stropping on newspaper can, at best, be compared to stropping on linen, when it comes to the abrasiveness of the chemical components of paper. Mainly cellulose, some hemi-cellulose and traces of lignin (the hardest of those 3).

Ah, but it's all about the ink, right?:)

Black newspaper ink is made from Soy oil and carbon black. Interestingly, Carbon Black has a particle size of in between 0.01 micron and 0.1 micron. That is still, at its largest, 5 times smaller than the typical Chromium Oxide particles used for sharpening.
But what really turns this whole sharpening on newspaper thing into a hoax is the hardness of Carbon Black. It's in between 2 and 3 on the Mohs scale. That's nowhere near hard enough to exert any abrasion on hardened steel (somewhere around 6 on the Mohs scale). Luckily so, because otherwise a newsprint press running at 40000 prints per hour, would see some serious wear on the parts that make a rubbing contact with the ink. Not to speak of the printing plates themselves, that are made of soft aluminum.

In conclusion, it is impossible to get any abrasion from rubbing steel on black newsprint. I am not saying that it can't possibly do anything. But you must seek in the direction of edge coating, rather than honing or sharpening. Stropping on newsprint might, just might, have some significance as the Do-it-yourself equivalent of teflon-coating (which is done to many commercial razor blades). Newspaper ink gunks up amazingly fast. It is sort of designed to do that. If you ever rubbed your hands a couple of times over a densely printed part of a newspaper, you know what I mean. It is also formulated to repulse water, because offset printing relies on that by principle. That's why the gunked up ink will stay in the bevel grooves and will survive rinsing during the shave.
If I was interested in trying this sort practice, I'd do it as a very last step before shaving.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Bart Thank you for bringing some of the realities of the physics of newsprint to the discussion. Its not an area I'm fluent in, and gladly defer to your knowledge there.

Now - shave results

Wacker (15/16 full hollow0 started out maybe needing a touch-up, 'Got 70 strokes on 3 sheets of newsprint, and a dry stroke or two was promising.

Crown Razor 11/16 1/2 hollow. Shaved well, but I refinished on Asagi w/ very light slurry, diluted to water over 60-70 strokes. It then got 30 strokes on newsprint.

Both razors then received my normal post honing strop regimen - 100 strokes flax-based linen, 100 strokes Illinois 361 (high-draw cowhide), 100 strokes Shell.

The crown was less improved, but the best it has shaved. Keenness was hht3-4

Wacker was noticably improved, no longer needing a touch-up. hht mostly 4.

Both were very pleasant to shave with, and rather friendly to the face. The crown is likely being sold, but was so enjoyable I was 3/4 of the way through the first pass before remembering i wanted to shave w/ the Wacker.

Observations: Wacker got more strokes and was most improved. Both were very pleasing.

Want to try: Bart's recommendation about making it the last operation before shaving.
More strokes for the Crown to see if it continues improvement.

FWIW
 
FWIW, sometime ago when I started on straight razor shaving, I did not have a leather strop for several weeks and followed the advice to strop on newspaper. I may not have been able to discriminate well enough as a novice, but newspaper stropping seemed to work quite adequately.

I do not recall Carter making the claim along the line that newspaper is intended to abrade metal. My impression is distinctly that it was proffered towards the end of the regimen as an edge 'finishing' step. My sense is that for Carter too it was not different from:
Bart said:
... Stropping on newspaper can, at best, be compared to stropping on linen ...

My impression also is that Carter's distinction of edge-leading vs edge-trailing is not based on affirming abrasion over plastic-flow, but simply that trailing strokes can be less damaging to the edge.

I realize speculating about micron-level phenomenon is a slippery slope. Until one can watch through an electron microscope, logic is your only ally. So, I wondered how I, or anybody, should 'choose' edge leading versus trailing versus a combination. (Of course, there is no option is some cases as in leather or linen stropping.)

My sense is that, for manual sharpening, given the architecture of human hand and the usual geometry of blades and knives, edge leading can be aggressive for metal removal while edge trailing more gentle. I am not afraid to be disproved.
 
VGeorge,

I've heard of using newspaper - which is where the mention of the print/ink content came from. I don't have a way to confirm or deny the ink affect, and am inclined to hear Bart when he casts doubt on it. In these threads, the paper was placed on the cover of a hardback book or similar object. Never what the paper placed over a hard stone. When you used newspaper - what did you put the paper on?

That the paper would compare to a canvas/linen strop sounds right, but the effects from this stropping excede what I've gotten from even flax based linen. I can't make sense out of why it should be that way, but the fussy hard steel Wacker doesn't need a touch up now. Maybe a short-lived improvement? I don't know. I'll keep shaving with it to see if the edge persists as is would from a honing.
 
Pinklather,

I have a granite slab on which I put the newspaper folded few times over.

I read with interest your "experiment" and will watch out for your reports on the longevity of the Wacker edge.

It is totally fascinating that you found newspaper to have better effect than flax based linen!

George
 
Stropping on newspaper, I suspect an improvement is a result of burnishing (Plastic Flow)... like stropping on leather before a shave.
 
Danjared - Dang good question. I've not tried backing the linen w/ a hard surface. I would think it would approximate the same affect, but the yield or 'give' in the linen, I would think, would make it slightly less pronounced. I will try this, 'cause it makes too much sense not to.

Vgeorge: I will keep using this blade for at least a week. The Carter vid has him describing the reason for the hard backing as eliminating any convexity from the flex in the hanging strop. Maybe that's correct, maybe not, but there's not downside to testing for myself. Your use of the granite slab would seem an excellent way to go.

Smythe: I would think the burnishing is right, but would also be present from a normal hanging strop. The only difference being the resulting profile of the bevel/edge from a single plain, vs an arc/convex surface from the flex.

Just for the record. I'm not suggesting Carter's methods are any kind of end-all process. Like input from many skilled guys - if it works for me, I've learned something. The idea that the burnishing in a flat plain would feel different on the face - makes sense. It also has me contemplating backing both my linen and leather with a hard surface. The linen and leather would have more flex, but might yield a different feel to the finished edge also.

Also for the record: I don't assert that alot of text/ink has an affect, but that others posted they thought it was more effective. Its not an area I can confirm or deny. I appreciate Bart's weighing in w/ the physics of the materials.
 
It has never been observed that stropping on a surface that was not treated with abrasives (particles harder than the steel of the edge), could lead to a convex bevel. One can fold the edge over by turning it over on the strop, but that is not the same.
As most shavers I know, I strop my razors on hanging strops. I'm in the habit of doing 20 laps on linen and 40 on leather. My linen has chalk on it, because I suspect that it promotes burnishing, and because I like how it makes the fabric feel for stropping. My leather is clean. Even after 30 shaves, there is no significant convexity in the bevel. I know this for two reasons. Convexity can be seen under magnification (stereo microscope) by observing how the light reflects of the bevel while it it lowly turned along it's axis. The seine reason, is because I predull my edges on glass before I rehone them. They do not shave arm hair at that point. It takes until the bevel sides are fully flattened, before the very edge will respond with gaining arm shaving sharpness once again. If the bevel was still flat to start with, that happens almost immeditately. If on the other hand the bevel was convex it can take a considered amount of time before the very edge contacts the hone.
On the other hand, strops that are loaded with abrasives, can convex a bevel in short time, when they are not placed on a flat rigid surface. Not that there's anything wrong with that, convex bevels can shave as well as straight ones.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Yes, Carter does claim 'rounding' from 'aggressive' stropping on hanging leather, while the more accepted terminology, for sure, is 'rolling'. There were also bits of defensiveness and touch of grandstanding, etc. His examples were over-wrought in places, although it is very difficult to explain verbally some of these things, even with crude models and graphics.

Bart, the chalk you use on linen, is it ordinary chalk one would use on, say, Blackboard - or some special formulation?
 
Nowadays, it's chalk I picked up at the "Seven Sisters" cliffs in South-East England. But that's only because I'm a sentimental fool.:)
I started out with Dovo's white strop conditioner, which Has been reported to contain chalk. Then I switched to drawing board chalk, which actually contains usually gypsum and kaolin. They both have a hardness around 2 or 3 on the Mohs scale.
But then I stole a piece of England's white cliffs and brought it home. It works all the same: it clogs the pores of the fabric, which lends it a nicer "stropping feel" by my experience. And it also may make the linen slightly more effective, but that may very well be a self-dillusion.
I've done a side by side comparison of the Kanayama linen, of which I own two straps, chalked and unchalked. And I've done the same for two jute straps. The chalked version strop "smoother", and when test shaved directly off the fabric, the chalked versions provide a nicer shave. But when followed with normal stropping on clean leather, I could no longer detect much difference between the preceding fabric strops.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Thanks! :)

Sounds exciting to be able to use a part of the cliffs of English "Seven Sisters" before every shave. :lol:

Sorry, could not help myself. ;)

I will settle for some Blackboard chalk. :(
 
Back
Top