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Correct way to holding hair while HHT performing

king

Well-Known Member
Which is correct way to holding hair while performing HHT test:

1. holding hair root between fingers or
2. holding tip of the hair between fingers?

Thx
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
You hold the hair by the tip. You may also tilt the blade slightly away from your holding hand. This way it is easier for the cutting edge to catch the hair shingles that open towards the tip.
Althoung ... the absolute acid test for me is to hold the hair by the root. If the hair pops in this configuration then you know you got some really scary sharp piece. Though, too sharp to shave maybe.

Cheers
BlueDun
 

RicTic

Well-Known Member
The only time I've ever seen a hair split both ways was with my Le Grelot from Martin at RasurPur.
I've not been able to replicate that with any of my coticule's on the blade, or any other blade for that matter.
Does anyone know what he finishes on?
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
AFAIK Naniwa SS 10'0000.
I have one of those too and with some patience you can get a really darn sharp edge.
In fact, If I use this one as finisher I will not let go unless I have a HHT4 right off the hone.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Try the hard soap trick on a Coticule. If you get it right, you'll get HHT-5 (post stropping) At that level hairs split no matter how you hold the hair.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
squeezyjohn said:
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That depends on your shaving style and what your skin can take.
I use as little pressure as possible while shaving, but when the edge is too keen, it slices through my hair papilae, leaving small bleeding spots randomly spread on my face. I believe they are sometimes referred to as "weepers".

With the "hard soap trick" I regularly need to trace a bit back with 5 - 10 laps on water, to tone down the edge a bit. I do this during the test shave, as I haven't figured out how to predict it. Neither have I figured out a fool proof way to do the trick. sometimes it works at the first attempt, sometimes I need to retry a couple of timed. Today I honed 3 razors. Spend 40 minutes on the first and 20 minutes total on both others. The first one was the only one I didn't have to dial back a bit.

Jean-François, if you read this, they are on the way, my friend.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
squeezyjohn said:
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Ouch!

best thing is, with a Coticule, as the sharpness increases, so does the smoothness, there are plenty of ways to get an edge sharper, but I wouldn't want to shave with it, as smoothness is often lost, lets take the edge off a 1200 grit stone, for example, the hht will be super, due to the teeth formed along the edge, but the shave will feel like broken glass.

Or lets look at a DE blade, now thats a sharp thing indeed, HHT5 straight out of the packet, if you use a shavette you will find that every day shaving is a bit of a no go, due to an increase in irritation, I know I have tried it.

So when looking for a great shaving edge, its important to understand that it must do two jobs, first it must cut through stubble with ease (Sharpness) and second it must leave skin irritation free (smoothness) a balancing act ensues, of course there are some that insist " the sharper the razor, the kinder it is on your face, because you can shave with such little pressure that the skin is almost untouched" whilst this has aspects of truth, its not the full picture, try the shavette for 7 straight days and see how your skin thanks you...lol

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

king

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
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I got same situation tonight while honing my Friodur 7/8 and M. Livi 7/8.
M. Livi takes edge in two attempts. After "soap trick" HHT was 4 (1,5 cm from holding point) and after stroping 60 linen, 30 thick side Kanayama #80000 leather and 30 Cordovan Leather HHT was 5.
On the other hand I have to do 5 attempts with Friodur (after all attempts it was possible to do HHT whith thick hair but not with thinner one so I come back again and again untill thin hair pass HHT) and after 5th trick attempt HHT was 3 (1 cm from holding point) and after the same stropping procedure as above HHT jump to 4.
I will report shaving results tommorow. Hope that lather will be better than today. I will do certain combination-Semogue 1305 with Castle Forbes creme.
 

SliceOfLife

Well-Known Member
BlueDun said:
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Seriously? I always hold by the root. No wonder I find people's estimations of edges out of whack with my experience.


Now I feel silly.
I'm gonna have to go try holding by the tip.


As for what Ralfson says, there is definite truth to it, but I STILL believe the "too sharp" issue is due to a failure of technique. I WILL get to the point where I can shave with absolutely any edge without irritation.

As it is, if I max out razors on my finest Jnat, I will have 24+ hrs of BBS, but there will be invisible spots on my neck immediately after the shave. These spots will look 100% healthy, no scrapes, cuts, nicks, etc... But they will VERY slowly seep blood. 1 min after my shave I look like a leper if I don't wipe my neck.

With practice I am gradually increasing how refined I can take an edge while avoiding this painless "skinning" of my throat during a shave.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
king said:
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Two of the most the most passionately debated concepts in one quote. Here we go.:rolleyes:

We don't all "know what overhoned really means". In fact, we don't all agree what it could mean. I usually avoid the term, but if you want my definition, an overhoned edge is one that disintegrates at the tip after it reached its maximum keenness on a hone that causes such a problem. The result is a sort of microscopical barb wire at the very tip of the edge. Serious stropping on linen causes that barb wire to break off and leaves a dull result. When not removed by the strop, the skin will serve the same function during the shave, with the experience of heavy irritation and a rapidly deteriorating edge. That, per my definition, is "overhoning", and I have never observed it on a Coticule, no matter how many laps done. Everyone is free to accept that definition or not, because "to overhone" is not a verb found in the English dictionary. But if we follow the above definition, overhoning has not much to do with the keenness level of a correctly honed razor. An industrially sharpened Feather disposable blade is for my preferences and skin too keen to shave with. And it is certainly not "overhoned". I can match and probably even surpass the keenness of a feather blade, by the use of diamond lapping films up to 0.3micron particle size. Those edges aren't overhoned either, but their shave is downright uncomfortable for me. But that is indeed an opinion. I know a guy who had the opinion that there was no such thing as driving too fast. He liked to voice that opinion among other people as much as possible. At Chrismas eve 1995, he lost control of his Opel GSi, while making a maneuver at high velocity. The car ended at a tree, the engine a 100m farther at the other side of the road. Purely coincidentally, he crashed almost in front of the house where I lived at that time and it was I who called the ambulance. For his girlfriend they arrived too late, but he survived. And lives on to state that "the car was badly tuned". It's a true story, and I think it essentially deals about machismo.

The same kind of machismo we often meet in the discussion about "too sharp". There are guys who complain about the harshness of 0.25micron diamond spray, and love to shave with razors finished on 0.50micron diamond spray. They are prepared to call it "harsh", the edges are in no way overhoned, but refuse to even consider the idea that it might be too sharp. A rejection of a the most likely truth, on emotional grounds. What kind of man admits that he prefers to shave with a less sharp edge?

All in my opinion, that is not to be taken as a personal rejection of whomever likes to shave with keener edges than I do.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
I too have no real understanding of the term over honed? I tend to agree with the idea as Bart says, some stones will cause an edge that breaks down and leaves a burr, me I have never experienced it first hand

And too sharp is definitely too sharp, same as too fast, we never hear anyone saying the edge is too forgiving, do we ? I would consider an edge that effortlessly slices a layer of my skin off as I shave, as being too sharp, I mean we are talking about cutting hair, not splitting atoms.

Anyone here ever shaved with a ceramic scalpel or similar? I would imagine Mr Gillette would have marketed one by now if scary sharp meant best shaving.

Just the way it works for me chaps

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

mysteryrazor

Well-Known Member
I think you are correct Bart. I have had that result using the pyramid. The old barbers trick is to back stone a few passes and re hone.
 

king

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
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When I said "overhoned" I think exactly what Bart said above, the edge which is not properly honed and have wired edge. OK, that's not possible with Coticule but it's possible with man made stones eg. Norton.
Maybe term "too sharp" is concerned with macho mans that Bart also speak about above. If you master great technique and skills razor can not be too sharp because you have technique to master that "too sharp" razor. So, in my oppinion "too sharp" does not exsist. All of that is only in our specific tecnique and skills.
Do not be misunderstands, I do not want to say taht all of us (me too) do not have proper technique and skills for razor mastering. We just developed one kind of technique which is in relation with properly honed razors and not with razors that are "too sharp".
Someone says that shaving with shavette every day is disaster for skin after 10 days (I can confirm taht also), but I have few friends who do shaves with shavette+Feather every day last two years. And their skin is not worse than my at all. I just can say that they master skills for that kind of shaving.
So, that's just my oppinion.
Thx
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
That is a very correct observation, King. A good shave is always the result of several parameters working together. And the ability to handle a particular level of sharpness well is certainly part of the equation.

To stay at my car comparison, let's say that some guys prefer to drive something like this:
0.jpg

And others prefer to drive this:
[img=600]http://www.khulsey.com/stockphotography/horch-853-voll-and-ruhrbeck-cabriolet-1937.jpeg[/img]

Or this:
chaik1.jpg

And so on.

I believe they all place their own demands upon the driver.
Personally I don't get a kick out of driving sportsters, or from shaving with razors that require utmost concentration, give me ingrowns under the corners of my mouth, and weepers if I forget for split second that I actually have to float the razor above my skin.
But I have no problem with anyone getting a kick out of speed (as long as they don't jeopardize my and my loved ones' safety in traffic), and with a desire to shave with the most dangerous edge available.
I just like to shave with the most comfortable edge that still offers me a perfectly close shave. I don't know if my beard reemerges an hour sooner than when shaved with a razor of Feather-like keenness. Somehow I think that gets often largely overstated, but I admit that I never tested it.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
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