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Correct way to holding hair while HHT performing

I stopped using diamond spray for the reasons mentioned above. I have shaved with a good number of razors finished by so called honemeisters. Some where excellent, most were very good. Two were bad, both off high grit synthetic hones and diamond spray. They were sharp - probably as sharp as these razors get. But they delivered uncomfortable shaves. The excessive sharpness was gone after two shaves (good), but the blades were in for a refresher on diamond spray after 6 or 7 uses respectively.

Is that a problem? No, it is not. It is just a modernised version of the good old European tradition of using pasted strops instead of honing. However, this procedure comes at a price, ie edges that round over time. Which means that the razors need regular (whatever the exact interval might be, depending on your use of course) re-honing. If you like to play with many hones, strops, and pastes/sprays, that is fantastic. If you are like me, and like stuff that simply works, it is a non-starter. I absolutely do not need excessive sharpness, especially not at 04:30 in the morning, and the edges I get from my Coticule (or others like the razors I recently received from Jean Francois and Ray) work well for me. Problem solved.

Regards,
Robin
 
BeBerlin said:
I have shaved with a good number of razors finished by so called honemeisters. They were sharp - probably as sharp as these razors get. But they delivered uncomfortable shaves.
Regards,
Robin
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+1
 
SliceOfLife said:
BlueDun said:
You hold the hair by the tip. You may also tilt the blade slightly away from your holding hand. This way it is easier for the cutting edge to catch the hair shingles that open towards the tip.
Althoung ... the absolute acid test for me is to hold the hair by the root. If the hair pops in this configuration then you know you got some really scary sharp piece. Though, too sharp to shave maybe.

Cheers
BlueDun
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Seriously? I always hold by the root. No wonder I find people's estimations of edges out of whack with my experience.


Now I feel silly.
I'm gonna have to go try holding by the tip.


As for what Ralfson says, there is definite truth to it, but I STILL believe the "too sharp" issue is due to a failure of technique. I WILL get to the point where I can shave with absolutely any edge without irritation.

As it is, if I max out razors on my finest Jnat, I will have 24+ hrs of BBS, but there will be invisible spots on my neck immediately after the shave. These spots will look 100% healthy, no scrapes, cuts, nicks, etc... But they will VERY slowly seep blood. 1 min after my shave I look like a leper if I don't wipe my neck.

With practice I am gradually increasing how refined I can take an edge while avoiding this painless "skinning" of my throat during a shave.
Click to expand...

I, too, was a skeptic of the "it *can* be too sharp" theory. Then I bought a disposable blade straight. The Derby blades I bought for it are *sharp*. They skim through my tree stump whiskers without effort. Even the really tough chin stubble falls easily, including ATG. BUT at the cost of zero skin comfort. I'm left with weepers, burn, serious irritation, regardless of how low I angle the blade. That is DEFINITELY *too* sharp.

OTOH, I can get a completely irritation free shave with a less sharp regular straight. But that comes at the price of having serious tugging/pulling on the whiskers. Chin stubble just laughs at such a feeble edge. But I'm left with no weepers, and no irritation.

There is a "sweet spot": a blade honed sharp enough to teach the chin stubble who it's Daddy is, yet not raze it's way through the hair papillae (leaving weepers) in the process.

That's why honing is such a difficult thing: The "Sweet Spot" has a large variance between people. What might not be sharp enough for me, might be just fine to a guy that doesn't grow small sapplings on their face like I do. Like many (all?) things related to straights, it's highly subjective.

But trust Bart when he says "too sharp is not a good thing". I doubted it, touched that hot stove for myself, and am now a firm believer.

The 18 bucks I spent on that replaceable blade straight was the best money I've spent on educating myself in this hobby.

There is great learning potential in buying yourself two things:

1. A replaceable blade straight

2. A regular straight sharpened by a reputable honer.

You'll have two standards: Too sharp, and one that is, hopefully, in the "Sweet Spot" for sharpness.

One interesting thing the coticule does for me... I'm one of those guys that prefers a *very* sharp blade. I have to have it really sharp, cause my whiskers are extremely coarse, with many follicles producing *two* hair shafts! So I hone down to .1 micron lapping film with regularity. Doing a few light laps on a coticule with water only afterwards greatly reduces the "harsh" feeling, without reducing the keeness appreciably.

Once you really feel what "too sharp!" is, you'll have one of those "Oooooooohhhhhhh... I get it!" light bulb moments that you (and your face) won't soon forget.

Edit: A replaceable blade also allows you to adjust the sharpness down to test where your "sweet spot" is. Try this:

1. Shave with a new blade. Get a feel for how incredibly over sharp it is.

2. Throw that blade away. Put in a new blade, and draw it lightly over a wine cork. Shave again. Get a feel for how it's less sharp.. it might increase the tug on the whiskers a bit, but it's not nearly as hard on the face.

3. Throw that blade away. Put in a new blade, and draw it lightly over a wine cork twice. Shave again.

4. Keep doing this, increasing the light draws over the cork by once with each new blade. Eventually, you'll get to the point where the blade isn't going through the hair comfortably, but you'll notice a marked decrease in weepers.

Eventually, you'll find your "sweet spot". Now that hard part comes in honing a blade to match your face's "sweet spot".
 
So, tonight shaving with M. Livi 7/8 which was honed last night by "shaving soap trick". After stropping HHT was 5 but tonight shaving was little bit harsh.
I did not make few laps on Coti with water after "soap trick" so that can may be reason in razor harsheness.
Your oppinions????
 
Give it 10 light X-strokes on a clean Coticule with water. (the soap residue easily washes off under the tap).

Or else, give your shaving technique some time to adapt to this new kind of edge.:)

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Several of us have mentioned the same experience, King. It is exciting to get the high HHT off the soap/wax technique, but it always seems to leave an edge too sharp for comfort to me. I can't remember (I'm old, right, Robin) what phrase I am supposed to use for "too crispy", but I think that gets the point across. Oh yeah, "scrapey", not "crispy".

I haven't gone back to an untreated stone to back off an oversharp blade because for me, a properly honed-on-water edge is just right as it is. I'll have to give backing down a try. Yours truly, D
 
DJKELLY said:
for me, a properly honed-on-water edge is just right as it is.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on that one Dennis. I've been doing it on all razors I've honed recently for research' sake. Sometimes hitting the desire keenness on a Coticule can be a challenge. There are several recipes circulating on these boards about what to do when the edge doesn't agree right away with our best intent for it. The soap wax trick is extremely promising for dealing with such cases. That's why I'm honing razors now without spending too much attentions on my first finish on water, but boosting them with soap on the hone instead. I've done a dozen of razors on wax as well. Wax is slightly more consistent in outcome. But the effect on the hone doesn't last longer than 2 or 3 finishes it seems. After that the waxed Coticule stops doing the magic. I speculate that it works best with fresh, vigorous garnets. After 3 attempts, the soaped/waxed surface starts to look glazed as well.
I find it easier to remove the soap - just a quick rinse under a running tap - than the wax, which requires a rag with naphtha.
That's why I'm experimenting further with soap for now. It's just something you can do on the same stone, if the HHT doesn't really make you happy after initial finishing attempts on water. But it's certainly not meant to become a fixed part of the Dilucot procedure.

Best regards,
Bart.
 
RicTic said:
The only time I've ever seen a hair split both ways was with my Le Grelot from Martin at RasurPur.
I've not been able to replicate that with any of my coticule's on the blade, or any other blade for that matter.
Does anyone know what he finishes on?
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all of my ti's and le grelot are from raspur. Most of then are honed with 8k naniwa and finished on 1my and 0.25 my bio diamond paste. I have the bio paste. he tends to hone his razors with belgium coticule then finishers on 10k naniwa and 0.25 bio if needed. I have found the edges from martin to be shave ready but to harsh for me.

gary

ps i will let you no what my crown wing shaves like . Should be here soon!
 
"..., lets take the edge off a 1200 grit stone, for example, the hht will be super, due to the teeth formed along the edge, but the shave will feel like broken glass."

Don't underestimate broken glass. Our ancestors did brain surgery with glass knives and when I was doing preps. for SEM work (long time ago admittedly) the best knives for slicing thin sections were still pieces of broken glass. Beat diamonds in every way but longevity, but glass is cheap.

I've wondered what a good flint knapper could do with a piece of obsidian as a shaving tool. The edge would be too short of course, and hard to hold, but oh what a lovely PSS (Pleistocene smooth shave). I can just imagine the animated arguments about the best technique for knocking flakes off the core......

But the HHT test would only be valid if you used mammoth hair.
 
Bart said:
DJKELLY said:
for me, a properly honed-on-water edge is just right as it is.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on that one Dennis. I've been doing it on all razors I've honed recently for research' sake. Sometimes hitting the desire keenness on a Coticule can be a challenge. There are several recipes circulating on these boards about what to do when the edge doesn't agree right away with our best intent for it. The soap wax trick is extremely promising for dealing with such cases. That's why I'm honing razors now without spending too much attentions on my first finish on water, but boosting them with soap on the hone instead. I've done a dozen of razors on wax as well. Wax is slightly more consistent in outcome. But the effect on the hone doesn't last longer than 2 or 3 finishes it seems. After that the waxed Coticule stops doing the magic. I speculate that it works best with fresh, vigorous garnets. After 3 attempts, the soaped/waxed surface starts to look glazed as well.
I find it easier to remove the soap - just a quick rinse under a running tap - than the wax, which requires a rag with naphtha.
That's why I'm experimenting further with soap for now. It's just something you can do on the same stone, if the HHT doesn't really make you happy after initial finishing attempts on water. But it's certainly not meant to become a fixed part of the Dilucot procedure.

Best regards,
Bart.
Click to expand...
I found the same thing with wax being effective for only a few honings, Bart. I keep one narrow stone waxed and to renew it rub it with a candle again and smooth it with lighter fluid (naptha) and my thumb and immediately do a couple strokes with a sharpish razor to remove the excess wax while still soft from the naptha. It seems to work well, but is just too much to fiddle with normally. I haven't done enough on that hone to see if it is less effective after the higher peaks are worn down, if that is what you meant. klfchjfkl. (Frickin' cat typed that. It might be code so I'll leave it.)

If I recall, the shave from the soap method was a bit nicer than the one from wax, leading me to believe in the too sharp theory. Neither are as nice as normal to me so it must be my "sweet spot" like the less experienced but much higher paid other airhead spoke about. Sincerely, D
 
I know, just playing a bit since this thread has gone so far off the original question. I have wondered about a knapped obsidian edge though. I believe I've read ethnographic accounts of glass knives being used for shaving, if only in limited areas.
 
It is interesting. My understanding is that obsidian and some glass products can spall off into edges that are as fine as a single molecule. Thats about as close as you can get to a 0[sup]o[/sup] radius bevel.
Still, I'll stick to my steel!
 
Great link! I hadn't seen that. I take back what I said about the blade being too small.

Not sure I could deal with wacking rocks before my coffee in the morning, but on the positive side I bet you could check an obsidian nodule through security at the airport. Well, then again maybe not.

I am sure though, that if he had used obsidian from a special outcrop in northern Africa known only to a select few, and an antler from a wildebeest killed in December that his edge would have been a lot smoother and sharper to boot B)
 
I have been interested in finding some obsidian for shaving, but came to the conclusion that it wouldn't work because it would be too brittle to hone. Of course, it never crossed my mind to do like the guy in the video...
 
Yes, each time it's dull, you just knock a few flints of the edge and it's good to go again. :)
 
wdwrx said:
My understanding is that obsidian and some glass products can spall off into edges that are as fine as a single molecule. Thats about as close as you can get to a 0[sup]o[/sup] radius bevel.
Click to expand...

That indeed is true. Obsidian edges are the keenest edges known to men. By cristaline cleaving you can get in fact edges that are only one molecule wide.
For example, the most delicate scalpels used in eye surgery do use an obsidian chip as blade. There simply is no finer edge that would be applicable for this work.

Cheers
BlueDun
 
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