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Coticule for ID Please :)

Pieface said:
I wish you had been out of bed a little earlier! I have mowed down half the hair on my arm already :lol: Too much fun watching the razor I have been honing from blunt knocking down tufts of hair easy as you like.
I was out of bed earlier (I'm in GMT+7 time zone now) but I had to deal with the stuff I'm paid for first. ;)
Anyway, you're still left with another forearm, both legs, a chest and a belly (if any hair grow over there). In the worst case you can ask your roommate/mate/neighbour to do you a favour. :lol:
 
If you pre-dulled the razor, and you arrived back at shaving arm hair level, there is no doubt whatsoever that both your bevel faces are flat and meeting each other at the very tip of the blade. Otherwise, there was just no way to edge could have gained the keenness to go from not shaving arm hair to doing it. How well, doesn't really matter, as long as you make sure that condition is met along the entire edge.

Once arrived at that point, the bevel is good. The second stage of sharpening consists of making the line where both bevel sides meet as thin (or keen) as possible. That keenness is not something that can be easily measure with shaving arm hair tests, although there are people that try to monitor whether the edge is capable of mowing arm hair a few mm above skin level. But for that, it's much easier and precise to rely on the hanging hair test (HHT). Do note that this test needs to be performed with understanding. This article tries to explain everything there is to know about that.

But there is a gap between the point where an edge can shave armhair and where is starts to show HHT-responsiveness. Crossing that gap is not overly difficult, but can be intimidating at first. Soon you won't worry about it an longer.

The gap can be bridges with a layer of tape. This is all explained in the Unicot article.
Another means to accomplish this without tape, is to slowly dilute the abrasive slurry on top of the Coticule. That's where the Dilucot method lends its name.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Thanks Bart.

I had hoped to try the taped satges of the unicot method over the weekend but preparing for the annual bulk rubbish collection saw me chopping down trees, digging up stumps etc and not having the energy to do much more than imbibe some amber nectar at the days conclusion.

I shall try the taped stage during my lunch break today. If I have read the HHT page correctly at best I should expect to see a HHT 3 prior to stropping? Also I wil be starting a fresh slurry. Any recommendation on the number of rubs on the slurry stone? I am guessing that 4 rubs should raise a very thin slurry to cut in the secondary bevel. If I am understanding correctly I want a slurry that will cut in a fine secondary bevel and want to minimise the number of laps on the coti to do this so it doesn't become any larger than neccessary?

Learning the slurry consistency and how it impacts the keenness limit seems to be the key to getting the hone to behave in the manner you desire? These points are diffrent for each hone but quite similar in hones from the same vein?
 
Pieface said:
If I have read the HHT page correctly at best I should expect to see a HHT 3 prior to stropping?
That is correct.
Pieface said:
Also I wil be starting a fresh slurry. Any recommendation on the number of rubs on the slurry stone? I am guessing that 4 rubs should raise a very thin slurry to cut in the secondary bevel.
There is not need to raise a fresh slurry. Just wipe half of the dirty slurry of the stone and add a splash of water. Fresh slurry works too, I'd say 3 or 4 rubs. But I prefer used slurry.

Pieface said:
If I am understanding correctly I want a slurry that will cut in a fine secondary bevel and want to minimise the number of laps on the coti to do this so it doesn't become any larger than neccessary?
You understood perfectly. When I was running the experiments that eventually led to what is now known as the Unicot method, I initially cut the secondary bevel with water only. I tried 50 laps, 100 laps, 150 laps, etc. But whenever I managed make the secondary bevel large enough to give the desired keenness improvement at such a small angle rise (only one layer of 0.15mm tape), there was a certain harshness present, that maybe acceptably on any other hone, but lacked the so reknowned smoothness of a Coticule edge. I speculated that, with out any garnets to massage the bevel tip, the hone was too aggressive on a edge that rests only on its very tip, during the start of the taped stage. That's when I decided to allow the secondary bevel to grow on thin slurry, and only refine it on water once it could support itself. (Hope this explanation makes sense).
Yet, you only want the slightest hint of slurry for that "massaging" effect, as thicker slurry will render your secondary bevel so dull that you can't refine it on water during the final step. It seems that thinned out "dirty" slurry works perfect for that.

Pieface said:
Learning the slurry consistency and how it impacts the keenness limit seems to be the key to getting the hone to behave in the manner you desire? These points are diffrent for each hone but quite similar in hones from the same vein?
Some of the veins (layers, we call them) are very narrow and therefor consistent in their properties. Other layers are wider and show more variability throughout the layer. That said, both the Dilucot and the Unicot method are painstakingly optimized to work with all Coticules. Every so often, I meet someone who comes up with a simpler method to achieve the same results. So far, it always ended up working for some stones, but not for others.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
I must just compliment both the questions and answers in this thread, wonderful stuff chaps, an obvious thirst for knowledge and clear intelligent answers to match.:thumbup:

Very nice to see indeed

regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
Ok I'm sitting now with a nice shaved face from my first Unicot edge. No wild claims off BBS but it is certainly a perfectly good shave for going to work and the WTG, WTG XTG mowed down my 4 days of growth with little effort :p

I'd like to say I came off the hone at HHT3 and stropped up to HHT5...but I would be lying. I think for a first effort on the coticule with zero honing experience my HHT1 and stropping to HHT3 was pretty good. I re-read the HHT page after conducting my tests and realised that I didn't hold the razor and hair exactly as recommended so I was perhaps making it a little more difficult. The shave was not bad, no irritation, no nicks I just struggled a little with keeness for the tougher chin area and I don't think I would have been making an ATG pass with the razor at this level. I usually use the toe end mostly in the chin region and this was probably the least keen area of the edge in the end. The last cm or so of the edge was performing to HHT2 after stropping.

I knew I was needing to roll my X-stroke a little more during the taped stage as I could see I was not getting the best contact with the toe on each stroke but I was erring on the side of caution with the pressure. I guess the feel for the acceptable pressure level will come with practice or my stroke wil develop so I get better contact without increasing the pressure as I roll the stroke.

Anyhoo quite fulfilling to get to this basic level of shave readiness, it is encouraging for the future :)

Big thanks to Bart for his guidance, such knowledge and patience for all us noobs! I must now trouble the gentlemen of the board further...

I am obviously not quite there with this unicot edge. With the underlying theme to be keeping the secondary bevel small how do I proceed to try and improve my edge? Must I reset the bevel and try again or are there a few tricks left to tweak this edge?

I find I thirst for knowledge of many things Belgian these days Ralfy. Primarily monk-brewed ales and Coticule stones :thumbup: Luckily this board can help with one and my wallet with the other :D
 
Hi PF--Just tape that sucker again and have at it. The big hurdle for me at your stage was being able to test the edge. You need to find a source of thick hair of which most of us have somewhere on our glorious bods. Wet the hair and prove with a sharp edge (even and DE blade) that you can make the HHT work. One thing to watch out for is to have the hair oriented properly so the root end is held outward or it won't work due to the shingled construction of hair. Once you can perform a HHT you can tell when to quit refining the edge and move to the strop. Some of us (me) like to use six or seven intermediate strokes on a linen strop or jeans before testing the edge to "clean" it before the HHT.

You will be making your secondary bevel thicker and it will take longer to refine with each session, but you are trying to refine your stroke anyway, so nothing is lost.

BTW, my signature line came from the wall of a bathroom stall in Brisbane. You are one bunch of "out dere" dudes down there. Denny
 
Cheers for the info Denny. I will have another session on the hone with tape today and see if I can improve.

My razor that I touched up smoothed out nicely on the cromox. I went 5 crox, 10 Feox, 60 linen, 60 leather and it smoothed out considerably. I got a nice easy shave today although I only had time for 2 passes thanks to the baby not wanting to have her nap. I will take this one back to the coti too and see if I can remedy my poor first effort.

Morgan :)
 
I followed Denny's advice and had a bit more of a play with my unicot edge.

I raised a misty slurry and made a couple of sets of 30 half strokes , a dilution and a couple more and then 100 laps on water. I couldn't get a HHT to save myself. The weather has been horrible here though 35-38C and high humidity so I don't know if that had some effect. I was wetting the hair as per the HHT guide but I was struggling. Perhaps it was just a natural variance in the hair from the wife's brush or a dirty hair :confused: Either way I was at HHT1, stropped and was still at HHT1 but the TPT felt quite OK. I had a test shave and the edge was sharper and smoother than previously. One of my best straight shaves to date. A bit confusing but that just reinforced to me that I have lots to learn.

Next plan for my test razor is to have one further shave from this edge and then dull the edge on glass and attempt a dilucot. Worst case scenario I will be in good order to make another attempt at the unicot. I am enjoying the practice. As I am having to concentrate less hard on the physical mechanics of making the strokes I am starting to pick up on more tactile and aural feedback from the hone. Hopefully this will help me realise a higher level of keeness as I go along and learn to interpret what is happening more accurately.
 
Good work!:thumbup:

And a good plan too.

On word of advice: if you want to rely on the HHT for probing the keenness level of an edge, it is absolutely imperative to use a constant hair source. It is best to find a person with thick, hair, and cut one lock right after that person has washed his hair.(I'd avoid conditioner and dyed hair, if possible). One small lock, cut somewhere close to the head, doesn't show at all. 50mm (2") length is enough. Store in a small box for future use. Soon, you' ll learn exactly what to expect from that particular hair sample, and you'll even be able to discern between the readings of the thicker and the finer hairs from that one lock.
Otherwise the HHT give you crude unreliable readings.

Have fun,
Bart.
 
Okey dokey I have a little update of my first Dilucot method and the plethora of newb questions that come with it :D

First I must admit to playing just about exclusively with my DE razor this past fortnight. If you are results oriented these things are amazing, efficient and effective hair removal but I felt again the pull of the process of the straight.

I took my test razor and dulled on glass. Built a slurry and woah! Two weeks without touching the coti is not a good idea for a newbie I really made some laughable strokes for the first minute or two. I calmed down a bit and made a set of 30 slow and deliberate X-strokes and felt like I had got back on the bike. I refreshed the slurry and started with some much nicer half strokes. 3 sets of half strokes and the bevel is looking pretty good. Just a bit more work on the toe area with a couple more sets paying more attention there. Ok I have a pretty good bevel. Quite easy to get the bevel right when the razor is in OK shape to start with. Baby starts to cry and I go to play dad for an hour or two.

Baby goes down for another sleep and super-dad :)P ) returns to the coti. A fresh slurry and away I go. I probably spend about 40 minutes from here on the razor. I worked out pretty quick that, at least for now, half strokes are not for me once the bevel is set. I just can't pick up any feedback when I use the half strokes.

I think I learned a few things as I went along. I really felt the abrasivness of the slurry drop away after say 15 or 20 strokes at a dilution point. It was a similar sensation to the stone on just plain water. From this point one of two things would happen. If I continued to make strokes without touching the slurry I would within 10 strokes or so feel the abrasive sensation return. I am guessing this is the slurry thickening slightly and regressing to a "coarser" cut?

The second thing was that if I added a drop at this point I also felt an increase in the abrasive sensation of the hone. 15-20 strokes and it smoothed out again. As the dilution increased it would take more strokes to reach the smooth point and I'll readily admit that a few times I added water as I felt the cutting sensation was increasing due to the slurry thickening. This may have thrown my steps out of whack but I felt like I was progressing in the right direction in general. All up I would say I felt like I made about 20 dilutions + corrections at which point I felt it was time to move to water or restart with a fresh slurry. I decided to go to the water stage and see what resulted. The TPT was feeling good to my limited experience and I have decided to try and learn this test. My request for a lock of clean hair from the wife was greeted by "the look" :lol:

I remembered a tip/step from one of the members honing guides. I rinsed the slurry from the stone but didn't rub it down. 50 strokes on water. Rinse and rub the stone and 50 strokes on water. I then went to the sink to make some laps under the trickling tap. I made about 4 laps and it was like a magnet switched on inside the coticule! A really suprising amount of suction onto the hone that I have not experienced before. I made a bout 40 laps under the tap before I decided to quit. The more akward position and the muscle fatigue was making it likely I was going to make an error if I continued.

The TPT felt really quite OK. 60 linen and 60 leather and the TPT felt excellent to me . I shaved with this edge this morning. Definitely the keenest edge I have off my coti yet. Unfortunately 2 weeks of DE shaving left my straight technique a little wanting, I gave myself a little razor burn with my first stroke of the day. I also managed to have a bad MWF lathering day so I decided to quit at two passes. Fine shave for work but I felt it was not my best effort :( looking forward to trying the edge again under better conditions.

Just curious...
Was the suction under the running water any indication of sharpness or just coticule personality trait?
Am I interpreting the feedback from the hone in an accurate way?
When I get the smooth feeling at a dilution step, how many strokes am I aiming for with this sensation before moving on?

Cheers,
Pieguy :)
 
when i get any difference in feel I dillute or do a sharpness test cause i know something has changed.
Im drinking christmas brew with % added so if i dont make sense ignore me tonighth[warn][/warn]
 
Pieface said:
Guess that wall of text freaked people out :D

Not freaked out, it just seems you are doing very well. You've opted to adopt your own personal style early on in the learning curve, which is something I find highly recognizable:rolleyes:, and perfectly ok. But of course, it also means that you're going to have to do this more on your own. The TPT is an excellent test to probe for end-sharpness, but an impossible one to put into words. I know what an edge feels like when freshly honed, but I have no idea how to explain it. You'll figure it out with practice.:thumbup:

I also have to admit that I don't focus too much on how the honing feels, as long as it more or less gradually evolves from abrasive on slurry to however the hone feels on water (there are differences between Coticules in this field). If I think I've need to add a drop of water, that's what I do. If I think I may have add a bit too much, I just stay at that level a set of halfstrokes longer. Before the halfstrokes, Dilucot was entirely done with X-strokes. It was much more challenging for me that way. If you search the old threads of the Cafeteria, you'll find a lot of tips and markers about the "old" Dilucot. Can't say that I ever looked back.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Thanks for the reply Bart.

I think in time I will graduate to half strokes for the dilucot but my technique needs to grow and develop some more yet. I will practice some slow half strokes and see how I go. I feel rushed when making half strokes for some reason and maybe at the edge of where I will make a mistake. I am only just beginning so I am thinking that form is more important than speed. I am trying to look at it as an hour of learning and gaining experience rather than taking 45 minutes too long to do the task :lol:

The abrasive to water on hone sensation is the correct one to look/feel for. Is just a stroke or two extra to confirm the sensation along the edge adequate or should there be some additional strokes at this point? My hone should be only moderate speed at best I think - I seem to get to the smooth sensation at a slurry step quite quickly, 15-20 strokes with a thicker slurry out to about 30 strokes as I get quite diluted. Any chance I am jumping the gun somehow or reading too small a change as significant? I keep reading about taking 2-3 sets of 30 half strokes at a dilution point...maybe my high number of dilution steps balances this out somehow in terms of total stroke counts?

I was having trouble keeping the slurry on the stone at one point and got a bit more active with my hone holding hand. I find it uncomfortable to try and hold the hone parallel to the ground and hold it on a slight angle with the end away from my body raised slightly. When I was making the return pass back toward myself it was very easy to push the slurry over the edge of the hone especially as it diluted and became more like water. To combat this I made sure each time I flipped the razor I tilted the hone slightly so each pass was made slightly uphill. This made the slurry less inclined to run away from the approching edge of the razor through the stroke. I also found it made it easier to spot areas on the edge that were resistant to undercutting the slurry. Any issues that can be seen with doing this?

Cheers,
Your pesky member from Down Under :)
 
Pieface said:
Thanks for the reply Bart.
I think in time I will graduate to half strokes for the Dilucot but my technique needs to grow and develop some more yet. I will practice some slow half strokes and see how I go. I feel rushed when making half strokes for some reason and maybe at the edge of where I will make a mistake. I am only just beginning so I am thinking that form is more important than speed. I am trying to look at it as an hour of learning and gaining experience rather than taking 45 minutes too long to do the task
It is definitely not a bad plan to first learn a good X-strokes, before dwelling into halfstrokes or helicoptical strokes. We've discussed this among the more experienced members earlier on, and we agreed that someone capable of doing a balanced X-stroke can adopt to these variations in a heartbeat, but not vice versa.
I think the most important thing about halfstrokes and the likes is that they almost automatically add pressure, which greatly enhances the efficiency of bevel setting and dilution stages on a Coticule. But you can also add a bit of pressure to X-strokes for the same effect.
Pieface said:
The abrasive to water on hone sensation is the correct one to look/feel for. Is just a stroke or two extra to confirm the sensation along the edge adequate or should there be some additional strokes at this point?
It is merely a general direction in which the dilution phase must move. From "grainy" to "glassy", if you catch my drift. But you mustn't evaluate this on a step by step basis. I don't think there is some marker to be recognized for knowing when it's time to add water. Instead you need to find a certain pace that works for the total of the process. In absence of experience, it's better to err on the side of doing more than needed. I recommend 10-15 dilutions (although I rarely do more than 7-10 myself), with sets of 15-20 halfstrokes (in your case: slightly pressured X-strokes) per dilution step. You don't want to make these steps too small, because of evaporation. If you think you're moving too fast, just do a couple of strokes more, before the next addition of water. If you think you're moving too slow, simply add a drop of water sooner. The basic idea is to dilute as gradually and smooth as possible throughout the entire process. Worrying at the end of each step about what to do is not going to help a smooth transition. As my friend JimR would say: "don't think. Just hone".
Pieface said:
My hone should be only moderate speed at best I think - I seem to get to the smooth sensation ata slurry step quite quickly, 15-20 strokes with a thicker slurry out to about 30 strokes as I get quite diluted. Any chance I am jumping the gun somehow or reading too small a change as significant?
It isn't bad to do more laps near the end of the dilution stage. Personally, I don't think any changes in how the razor glides over the surface can be considered an indication that the edge has maxed out on that level. There are enough other reasons why the feedback might change. If you were to really dull a razor by removing part of its bevel with a diamond hone, there would still be these kinds of sensations, without the very edge gaining any significant keenness.
That's why I adhere so much to certain milestones: passing the AHT (arm hair test) when the bevel is fully formed, passing HHT-1 after the dilution stage, HHT-3 after finishing and HHT-4 after stropping. Sure, you can translate most of that to the TPT as well.

Pieface said:
I keep reading about taking 2-3 sets of 30 half strokes at a dilution point...maybe my high number of dilution steps balances this out somehow in terms of total stroke counts?
I add water every double set of halfstrokes (one set per side), and as said I make 7-10 steps. I used to do much more, and I think that's normal for learning the process. I am currently working with very small Coticules (30X100), and on those it's a different story, with more halfstrokes per set.

Pieface said:
I was having trouble keeping the slurry on the stone at one point and got a bit more active with my hone holding hand. I find it uncomfortable to try and hold the hone parallel to the ground and hold it on a slight angle with the end away from my body raised slightly. When I was making the return pass back toward myself it was very easy to push the slurry over the edge of the hone especially as it diluted and became more like water. To combat this I made sure each time I flipped the razor I tilted the hone slightly so each pass was made slightly uphill. This made the slurry less inclined to run away from the approching edge of the razor through the stroke. I also found it made it easier to spot areas on the edge that were resistant to undercutting the slurry. Any issues that can be seen with doing this?
I do this as well. Keeping the slurry on the stone is something that will come to you automatically with more experience. It's a matter of stopping the stroke before it pushes the fluid over the rim.

Kind regards,
Bart
 
Thanks again for the detailed answers Bart. Plenty of tasty food for thought :)

I will try to shake this concept of certain # of strokes and steps to sharpness. I maybe need a more "organic" thought process of identifying progress and lack of it. Maybe each day, razor and slurry will be behave differently and require a different number of strokes/steps etc but will adhere to some basic principles that I can assess with observation and sharpness testing.

A good serviceable shave with this edge today but I will go back to the hone this weekend and practice and hopefully improve my understanding a little more.
 
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