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Dulicot honing method by Bart?

hi_bud_gl

Member
At first i should say why i am asking this question.
Couple months ago i had conversation with Rayman. I am sure you know him. As our discussion was about coticules he let me know your Interest on coticule is just from Love.You don't have any business interest etc. Recently i read on SRP that Bart you mention you are trying to find better ways to help coticule user to get best result from it.
I tried to find thread i couldn't find and if i am wrong on second statement you can fix.
Now all above gives me idea i can ask you this question.
1 What is the reason you have created Dulicot method.
My understanding is
At first you make slurry and then hone the blade . while you continue to hone slowly you do dilute the slurry until it gets clear water and after that you are doing certain more strokes .you can go strop and shave.

Above was General .(without number of strokes etc)
My question is
Bart do you think if stone (in this example coticule) has 8k (appox) grit level and while you are diluting the slurry and end up with just water that stone will act same as 12 k level or more?
if answer yes please do explain this phenomena.
if you can PLEASE IN SHORT WAYS. Not poem form.
Lastly i will post 3 coticule pictures which each acts differently.
1 is very slow cutter (slower then chinese 12k )(Rayman called it Italian marble)
2 fast cutter approximately grit will be 6k level
3 fast cutter app grit will be 8k or more level.

Third stone will act with slurry or without slurry same(edge quality). This makes me wonder is this stone doesn't have garnets?
Stone is Coticule i have stamp etc on the stone.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Hi Sham, the problem with your question is that you are trying to relate Coticules and the dilution of slurry to Grit size. You simply cannot do this, coticules do not work in the same way as synthetic hones, the garnets do not break down in the same way as Jap nats do, therefore you have to view the way they work differently to other types of hones.

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
On all Coticules I have tried so far, slurry had a negative effect on the keenness. On some more than on others. (I have a scale for what I call slurrydulling: +/++/+++)

On all Coticules I have tried so far, honing on water only did not have the negative effect on the keenness, but was too slow to make up for the missing keenness from slurry. At least, if you want to get the best of the hone.

Slowly diluting the slurry aims to bridge the gap between the keenness of slurry and the keenness required to finish on water.
I don't like grit ratings for natural hones, because they are irrelevant for the edge quality. But to make a comparison, using a Coticule without a dilution stage, or some other way to boost the keenness, you'll never get a great edge on just water. It is like jumping from a 1K hone straight to a 10K hone.

Now, if you do it on a Coticule that has +++ for slurry dulling, you will get a passable shave, but still not the best.

I believe, so far, you have rejected most of my ideas, and got exactly the edge that I used to get before I started to look for solutions to "bridge the gap" (excuse me if that sounds too poetic to you). I have found 3 possible solutions so far:
1. the use of other hones, called the progressive method.
2. the use of a dilution stage, called dilucot.
3. the creating of a very narrow secondary bevel, called unicot.

I have compared these edges with a series of blind shaving tests, both performed by myself and other people. No one was able to discern between the edges. Difference were reported as extremely minor and the average end-scores of all edges showed no statistical significance.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

hi_bud_gl

Member
keenness you mean sharpness of the edge? Right?.
I don't want to put words on your mouth but does this means.
While you sharpen razor on Coticule slurry ( which is Garnets in it) will not edge get sharp enough to get comfortable shave?
To avoid this problem you are find dulicot method.
By diluting slowly you are saying precess to sharper edge goes faster?
Is this Right?
In the other words your words"
using a Coticule without a dilution stage, or some other way to boost the keenness, you'll never get a great edge on just water. It is like jumping from a 1K hone straight to a 10K hone.

Now lets say. why you think if you go straight to water it will take too long time?
If you go straight water as you make your strokes stone will release enough garnets and will do the exact same work?
Don't you think So?
There is no way someone can tell that while you use just water Garnets are not releasing from the stone?
if that is the case then with slurry and then straight to clear water should speed up the process not slow down?
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
hi_bud_gl said:
keenness you mean sharpness of the edge? Right?.
Yes.

hi_bud_gl said:
I don't want to put words on your mouth but does this means.
While you sharpen razor on Coticule slurry ( which is Garnets in it) will not edge get sharp enough to get comfortable shave?
Yes.
hi_bud_gl said:
To avoid this problem you are find dulicot method.
By diluting slowly you are saying precess to sharper edge goes faster?
Is this Right?
No. The dilution slowly makes the edge sharper, because the dulling effect of the slurry slowly vanishes.

hi_bud_gl said:
In the other words your words"
using a Coticule without a dilution stage, or some other way to boost the keenness, you'll never get a great edge on just water. It is like jumping from a 1K hone straight to a 10K hone.

Now lets say. why you think if you go straight to water it will take too long time?
For the same reason as you can't jump from 1K to 10K. The Coticule on water lacks power to make up for the lack of keenness after slurry. That is the reason why you don't get the best results out of yours and keep repeating that Coticules are not the best finishers.

hi_bud_gl said:
If you go straight water as you make your strokes stone will release enough garnets and will do the exact same work?
No.
hi_bud_gl said:
Don't you think So?
All my experience shows that it doesn't work that way. On a rare Coticule that releases slurry while honing on just water, I recommend honing under a running tap.
hi_bud_gl said:
There is no way someone can tell that while you use just water Garnets are not releasing from the stone?
if that is the case then with slurry and then straight to clear water should speed up the process not slow down?
Sorry, I don't understand that question.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

hi_bud_gl

Member
No. The dilution slowly makes the edge sharper, because the dulling effect of the slurry slowly vanishes.

Bart Garnets makes the edge dull. is this correct? right? In the other hand you have said Belgian Coticule will not act as a Japanese stones meaning is Garnets will not brake down. They keep same size . OK then how in the earth you are saying same size garnets less number will sharpen the edge? or will add Kennesse?
Again you are saying if you use just water edge will not get sharp even in this situation there is less garnets in the surface?
Can you see contraindications?


All my experience shows that it doesn't work that way. On a rare Coticule that releases slurry while honing on just water, I recommend honing under a running tap.
hi_bud_gl said:
There is no way someone can tell that while you use just water Garnets are not releasing from the stone?
if that is the case then with slurry and then straight to clear water should speed up the process not slow down?
Sorry, I don't understand that question.
What i mean above question is while you do hone stone do release garnets always ?
Kind regards,
Bart.[/quote]
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
hi_bud_gl said:
There is no way someone can tell that while you use just water Garnets are not releasing from the stone?
if that is the case then with slurry and then straight to clear water should speed up the process not slow down?
bart said:
Sorry, I don't understand that question.
hi_bud_gl said:
What i mean above question is while you do hone stone do release garnets always ?

No, raising slurry releases garnets on a coticule. Stones that release garnets on water alone always will show it by forming slurry when used with only water (auto Slurry), slurry that will dull the edge, so its often best to rinse this away if you are using the stone as a finisher.

When used with water alone, very nearly all coticules that have been rinsed properly release almost no garnets, the finishing power comes from the garnets that are exposed yet firmly stuck in the surface, kind of like a very fine barbers hone, thats the reason that a coticule on water only will not have enough bite to bridge the gap from straight slurry to straight water, its a balancing act, very similar to honing on a jap nat, only because the garnets dont break down we have to remove them gradually by dilution, less garnets mean less edge dulling, and the edge is slowly refined when taken slowly through to water only.

TBH this is pretty basic stuff.

Sham have you tried a proper dilocut? and followed the method precisely? starting with a shave ready blade, dulling the edge lightly on glass, then going through the dilocut method as described here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I believe with the experience that you have, you should find the method extremely successful after only a few attempts, and did you not receive a razor honed by Gary using Dilocut, how did you find that shaved?

Regards
Ralfson
 

BKratchmer

New Member
You know, I'm not entirely clear on how the technique works, Sham, but I do know one thing...

....if Bart says it works on a coticule, I believe him. :)
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Well said, however its not just Bart that has become proficient at the Dilocut, Gary Stewart, Myself, Rayman, etc etc we can all get a wonderfully sharp and smooth edge on a razor using the coticule, and my stones although very precious to me, certainly are not one in a thousand.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Smythe

Well-Known Member
It is the huge number of garnets in the milky slurry that cuts fast and gets the rounded bevel initially flat. After that initial flattening job is done, the garnets are slowly removed by dilution (most of it eventually falls over the side of the hone), and then the still embedded garnets in the surface of the stone makes very shallow cuts in the steel to get the bevel to its final flatness (there are fewer garnets in the water to collide with the edge so the edge is allowed to get sharper)…

It doesn’t matter size of the garnets, it is the shape of the garnets still embedded in the surface of the hone (when mostly water in on the stone), that allows it to cut steel like other abrasive particles many times smaller in size, and thus will produce a final edge as sharp as any “finishing” stone. That’s one reason why it can be misleading to put The Coticule into a “grit size” category…

I believe all Coticules release garnets on there own (with just water), some release faster/easier than others, so the user must know how much dilution suits his hone (running water or just a splash)… How the Coticule cuts, depends on how it is used… and if it can be used successfully… depends on how well the user knows “that” stone.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Sham, you don't like theory, so let's skip my ideas why Coticules work like I think they do.
But let me tell you this:

I have shaved many times of a Coticule. Each time the razor passes my version of the HHT straight off the hone, I can get a great shave. Each time the razor did not pass my HHT, but I hoped it would be good enough anyway, the razor did not shave well. It was still smooth (leaving my skin unharmed), but tugged at the beard hairs. So, for me, honing on a Coticule, I aim for the edge to pass the HHT (before stropping it).

There are 3 ways I can do this. I have lined them up in my first post in this thread.
Honing on slurry is the surest way to reset the edge to a point where it will not pass that test, and will not shave me well. That happens very fast, even on a razor that was honed to perfection (no matter the hones, synthetic, Japananese, German, etc and the techniques used to hone it).

I can guarantee you that after that, honing on water only will not restore the HHT on that razor. Nor will it restore the shave quality I like. Well maybe, if you could spend 2 days honing on water, I don't know.:confused:
The dilution technique can be used to reach the keenness where the razor will pass the HHT, at which point I know the shave will be sweet.

That is how it works for me. It took time to learn, and every once in a while it even escapes me.
I have passed this onto other fellows that were fond of the idea. Some have learned how to do it. Some have not. Some have found other hones and methods that suits them better. That is all fine. I know guys that can't imagine shaving with a straight razor. I can't imagine shaving not with a straight razor. Some people can't imagine sharpening there razor on just a Coticule, I can't imagine needing anything else. It's all fine with me. On this website, every imaginable razor sharpening technique receives attention: we've talked about stropping on CrO, addressed the Naniniwa 10K before and after a Coticule, we've taken a wonderful journey into traditional methods for Japanese hones, we've discussed the best way to use an Escher. All sterling stuff, as my dear friend Robin puts it. I believe most people are smart enough to try a few options and stick with what they like best.
I can only speak with expertise about what I like (and know) best.
If you don't get it, or if it doesn't work that way for you, fine. But it sure looks to me as if you are on a quest to proof everything wrong, that doesn't work for you, or that you don't want to try.

Now, bottom line: if you have question about how Dilucot works, what kind of pressure I use, how slow I add water, etc, I will gladly answer them.
If you want to discuss physical hypothesis that offer scientific explanation on why it works, I will gladly dive into that as well.
If you would like to share with us how you think Coticules can be used to the best of their abilities, I am all ears and willing to try (if I own the hones to do it).

But this negative attitude where you try to proof wrong what obviously works for me and a bunch of other people will get us nowhere. We are open minded here at Coticule.be. We are not about proving another wrong, but about proving each other right.

Please give it some thought.

With respect and kind regards,
Bart.
 

Smythe

Well-Known Member
hi_bud_gl said:
No. The dilution slowly makes the edge sharper, because the dulling effect of the slurry slowly vanishes.

Bart Garnets makes the edge dull. is this correct? right? In the other hand you have said Belgian Coticule will not act as a Japanese stones meaning is Garnets will not brake down. They keep same size . OK then how in the earth you are saying same size garnets less number will sharpen the edge? or will add Kennesse?
Again you are saying if you use just water edge will not get sharp even in this situation there is less garnets in the surface?
Can you see contraindications?


All my experience shows that it doesn't work that way. On a rare Coticule that releases slurry while honing on just water, I recommend honing under a running tap.
hi_bud_gl said:
There is no way someone can tell that while you use just water Garnets are not releasing from the stone?
if that is the case then with slurry and then straight to clear water should speed up the process not slow down?
Sorry, I don't understand that question.
What i mean above question is while you do hone stone do release garnets always ?
Kind regards,
Bart.
[/quote]

After reading the above post I think I understand the point/question Sham is asking.
If all Coticules release garnets with water alone (considering some release more than others), AND garnets do not brake down and become smaller, then it is possible the garnets will dull the edge because they are “large” particles compared to the developing edge.

If I am correct in this assumption, then the best answer I can give is:
The area of the edge is very small compared to area of the bevels. When the slurry is milky (more concentrated with garnets), the collusion of garnets with the very edge is low compared to the collision with the larger area of bevels. So the bevels are abraded faster than the edge. However, there is still enough collusion with the edge to prevent it getting sharp at the milky stage (remember slurry is concentrated).

However when slowly diluted, there is less and less garnets in the slurry, the amount of collision with the edge is less by the same proportion (eventually, edge collision becomes negligible)… in fact, when the bevel becomes flat, the very edge finally touch the surface of the hone, all the garnets floating in the water is scooped over above the top-side edge during the pass and rarely (if ever) collides with the edge.

So it doesn’t matter the size of the garnets, it’s the composition of the hone, the shape if the garnets and the process of dilution, that makes the hone cut fast to flatten the bevels when milky, and then cut a fine edge when diluted…I cannot think of a better way to use the stone.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
Smythe, that is a completely valid explanation of what's going on. Much appreciated, but, :confused: wasn't that already completely obvious to everyone who ever used a Coticule? I mean, I can't imagine that a Coticule owner hasn't raised a thick slurry at least once and noticed how you can make a razor so dull on it that it won't even shave a single arm hair. Add a bit of water after that, do more laps and the edge starts to shave arm hair again. Add more water and it will shave even better. Also the TPT will confirm the same story.

There's only one slight assumption in your explanation that I can't agree with. A sharper edge doesn't cope with garnets more easily. Quite the contrary. It's the weakest part of the bevel that has to cope with the abrasive forces of the slurry. In a way of speaking, we are not only honing on the slurry, we are also cutting it. Cleaving through, if you wish. The thicker the slurry the less the bow of our bevel (which is the very edge) can avoid collision with the harder elements within that slurry. And a fragile bow would certainly be more affected than a thicker bow. In fact, as all things in nature, our bow will automatically take the shape that can cope best with the exerted forces. And that is a shape with a rounded tip... But we are counteracting by removing material for the bevel sides right? Well, for every given slurry thickness, there is a state of balance. An edge shape that looses as much as we gain with each honing stroke. If we started with a sharper (and thus more fragile) edge, we loose more than we gain, till our edge hits that state of balance. If we started with a duller (and this stronger) edge, we gain sharpness till we hit the barrier. The only way to raise the barrier, is to use thinner slurry. But than the hone becomes less effective as well, and that's where the need arises to dilute slowly. Because we must make sure that the edge keeps following.

I have tried many things to reduce "slurry dulling": softer water, reverse honing in stropping direction, salty water (a Dead Sea theory :lol: ), detergent, you name it. The only thing that really works is More Water.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

hi_bud_gl

Member
Bart
This is what i think and why i was asking the questions. After reading your last post i understand you think i am trying to bring all negative factors to your side include to make coticule bad stone.
I will say everything what i think after reading you can Judge me how you like.



At first i like to say. I have never said Coticule is a bad useless stone. i have always said Person(user) must to know when and how to use Coticules.
In fact in my 8 years honing experience i have own more then 136 coticules and only satisfied 3 of them.
what i mean by satisfied?
My point of view to use them for final putting edge on straight razors.
they all have been useful for different stage of stragiht razor honing or most have been great stone for carpenters.
I would say i have tested in 8 years period not just coticules including
synthetic hones, natural stones.
turkish oil stone. charnley forest, escher's ,thuringians , various Japanese stone etc .etc.
In Straight razor honing we(honers) Always looking for finest edge. what i mean by that. Edge which will be smooth and sharp.
Which stone will give to us the smoothest and sharpest edge possible , that stone makes us happy.
In my Experience i would say the best smooth and sharp edge i have gotten from
Brown Escher
Japanese stone
i have always problem with coticule sharpness.
Coticules will give to me smooth edge always but it will luck sharpness.Except my last 2 coticules which is bubbling stone (ray call it italian marble and Salm stone)
Now bubbling coticule is slower then chniese 12 but edge will come to very close to an Escher. you have to spend enough time to get that edge. That edge is satisfactory edge.
Salm stone is different story. That stone will cut very fast and edge will be very fine. i can shave off it without any trouble or complaining.
Salm is a coticule but it says from deep layers and veins runs across.(no idea what does do)
I would go head say this IF COTICULES WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR STRAIGHT RAZOR WHY IN THE EARTH OUR GRANDPARENTS USED THEM?
iN Fact i think they are good for that purposes .Only there is alittle missunderstnading about them.
This is from the coticule chart and it is not mine . srp member post it on srp.

GRADE by (Oldengaerde)

Common
Quarter Fine
Half Fine
No. 1 Fine
Superfine
Extra Choice
Extra Choice Sel.
Barbers' Special
Old Hickory
Old Rock

Let me tell you From this list i personally think last 3 stones will do the final finishing job on the straight razors but rest is not .
i think This is the problem .
In your World Bart you love coticule soooo much(nothing wrong with that if i were in your place i would do the same) that love makes you Blind.
What happens is this.
As you do have knolwedge and you have been in straight razor and knife forms for a long time as a good person people asks you questions about the coticules.
straight razor users after getting coticules they face difficulties to get edge they were expecting from coticule.
(remember new honers have no idea how sharp edge should be or blade should shave.- this is not to disrespect to young people. this is just my personal experience). you are getting a lot request to help them . This is Why you are thinking to find exit from this situation. that is why this 2 methods come up.
To make your life easy and rest of the people i think if you say them guys when you buy coticule make sure it is suitable for straight razors. I don't think you will ever need dulicot method.v
Lets say this Bart. Have you ever seen this 2 methods done by old barbers? Of course not. You know why? Do you think they shave with dull Blade? In fact no they didn't. Or have you seen any Barber hones on coticule and water dripping from top to the stone? i am sure your answer will be no.
You know why? Because they were using quality Coticules. that is why they don't need your dulicot method. it was unnecessary .
In reality do i blame you for this ? of course not.
I just find out it will not work as you describe. i cannot close my eyes and say Bart you are right edge will come out with slurry in 4 k level and then after dulicot it will act as same as 12k level. In fact i know that is not correct.
You have created that method to make useful FOR everyone . You think every single coticule will put final edge to the straight razors. i am sure that is not POSSIBLE and i know you know this too.
This is your mistake ( i don't think you do this intentionally) and
It comes out from love to the coticule.
This is why you are making coticule more valuable(with different ways) example by saying coticule is more versatile then EScher?
Lets say again In your way this is great words . in fact They are more versatile then eschers but not valuable then EScher.(in straight razor we look for the best final edge )
let me explain .
Escher's purpose is only to put final edge . that is it.
By using coticule you can sharpen Blade and put good edge to the staright razor but not as good as Eschers edge.
if you say IF Bart's says Coticule is more versatile then Norton 4/8 k then that will be wrong. As we know Norton will cut a lot faster and do great work but will lack of the smoothness of the edge.
Conclusion.
if person gets Coticules which is any of the last 3 they will be happy with coticule and have fun. They will not struggle etc.
That 3 cotiucle will make everyone happy Difficult part is this. Hard to find that quality stones at the moment.
( i cannot say anything ardennas coticules quality . i have never bought directly from them any coticule or tested
Lastly thank you for your help to People and explain to them how to use coticules. I hope you the best and wish rest of you members good luck have a lot fun.
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
hi_bud_gl said:
Bart
This is what i think and why i was asking the questions. After reading your last post i understand you think i am trying to bring all negative factors to your side include to make coticule bad stone.
I don't think your negative for the sake of it. I just think you're very dogmatic in your way of thinking about sharpening.
That is of course your good right. But it does not mean every one will always agree.
hi_bud_gl said:
I will say everything what i think after reading you can Judge me how you like.
I'm not in the habit of judging over people.

hi_bud_gl said:
At first i like to say. I have never said Coticule is a bad useless stone. i have always said Person(user) must to know when and how to use Coticules.
(...)
In Straight razor honing we(honers) Always looking for finest edge. what i mean by that. Edge which will be smooth and sharp.
Which stone will give to us the smoothest and sharpest edge possible , that stone makes us happy.
In my Experience i would say the best smooth and sharp edge i have gotten from
Brown Escher
Japanese stone
i have always problem with coticule sharpness.
I've only tried an Escher once. It was a decent shave. I own a Nakayama, supposedly a very good one, purchased from a reputed source. I also had an Asagi of Seth on loan for a long time. Seth had compared that one to a few others and he called it a very good one. The edges were completely on par with my own Nashii Nakayama. I wouldn't say they were better of worse than the Coticules that I tested.

hi_bud_gl said:
Coticules will give to me smooth edge always but it will luck sharpness.Except my last 2 coticules which is bubbling stone (ray call it italian marble and Salm stone)(...)
I would go head say this IF COTICULES WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR STRAIGHT RAZOR WHY IN THE EARTH OUR GRANDPARENTS USED THEM?
iN Fact i think they are good for that purposes .Only there is alittle missunderstnading about them.
This is from the coticule chart and it is not mine . srp member post it on srp.

GRADE by (Oldengaerde)

Common
Quarter Fine
Half Fine
No. 1 Fine
Superfine
Extra Choice
Extra Choice Sel.
Barbers' Special
Old Hickory
Old Rock

Yes, I've seen that list. I can add about a dozen other lists of former Coticule mining companies. They all had these quality gradations. Most of them were based upon speed. The simple fact is, that in the old days, they didn't talk about setting bevels and all that stuff, but they sure used Coticules for everything above some very rough (200 grit) sandstones. Hence they needed speed. I also have partial information about the layers that the company Old Rock (it's a museum now, if you ever visit Europe you must certainly drop by the former Old Rock Atelier in Salmchateau, much information to be found there, including all the old machinery they used). Anyway Old Rock, the company, only sold "the best" under their own brand name. They had a mine of their own, but they also bought hones from other mining companies. For the Old Rock line of hones, they used: La Veinette, La Grosse Blanche and La Petite Blanche. Presumably also L'Allemande and Les Petas. The hones were not only graded by layer, but also by how they looked. But anyway; Both the "Blanche" layers display a lot of slurry dulling effect. I'm quite sure you could not like them. There goes your theory about razor quality Coticules.


hi_bud_gl said:
In your World Bart you love coticule soooo much(nothing wrong with that if i were in your place i would do the same) that love makes you Blind.
That, my friend, is a serious accusation and no less than a personal insult. But I'm in a indulgent mood. Most people consider me very analytical, to the point of being boring actually. In the past, I've set up several experiments, where I honed 4 razors on 4 different Coticules, an let someone else shave with them. Someone who did not know the honing history of the razors. After the assessment, that guy returned the favor, by rehoning them for me so I could make the same BLIND (yes blind, with the B of unBiased) assessments.
Quite frankly, I too started out believing that there ought to be significant differences between Coticule edges. The more I learned about them, the more data I collected, the more I had to admit that the differences are very minor when it comes to finishing. On each hone in the Vault I have honed 3 razors, one Unicotted Double Arrow + two randomly other razors, usually both Dilucot. They all receive full test shaves (not just popping a few sideburn hairs). My beard prep for test shaving is almost autistic: I wash my face with green tea soap from TheBodyShop, I latter with the same mixture of Palmolive and Tabac, I strop the razor on the same strop every time, I shave WTG, ATG, and then a few special strokes. I rinse with cold water, and use the same brand of Alum after each shave. I never use A/S after a test shave. Just another rinse with water. I have a little container with HHT-hairs, been using the same hairs for over 2 years.
And you have the impolite nerve to call me blinded by love?


hi_bud_gl said:
What happens is this.
As you do have knolwedge and you have been in straight razor and knife forms for a long time
I've never been a member of a knife forum.
hi_bud_gl said:
as a good person people asks you questions about the coticules.
(...) you are getting a lot request to help them .
This is Why you are thinking to find exit from this situation. that is why this 2 methods come up.
These two methods came up, because I needed them to get my razors where I wanted them. If I hadn't found them, I would be using my Chosera 10K to get my razors sharp enough. It's very good at that. I would then finish on a Coticule, because I always felt that they provide a very sweet finish for my skin. But I like thinkering and playing around with the ideas that sprout. One of the very first attempts I diluted the slurry, I got an amazing result. I got it once, and it haunted me till I got is again. And again. And again. That's how I arrived at Dilucot. Unicot was indeed researched by me, because I wanted a method that would make it easier for someone just starting out, and also because I often failed with the diluting strategy. It became better with experience, and still better with the updated Dilucot procedure that's described in the article.

hi_bud_gl said:
To make your life easy and rest of the people i think if you say them guys when you buy coticule make sure it is suitable for straight razors.
Even on the rare Coticule I encountered that could render a razor shaveready with the use of slurry, a dilution stage would still improve the outcome.

hi_bud_gl said:
I don't think you will ever need dulicot method.
That is a most revealing statement. It is not about needing Dilucot, Sham. It's about choosing to do it that way. No one needs a Coticule, or an Escher, or a Nakayama, or a Norton, or whatever. There's always another option. You have rejected my suggestions for using Coticules. That is your good right. And then you claim to not get the desired results. That sound like a very nice self-fulfilling prophecy to me.
hi_bud_gl said:
Lets say this Bart. Have you ever seen this 2 methods done by old barbers? Of course not. You know why? Do you think they shave with dull Blade? In fact no they didn't. Or have you seen any Barber hones on coticule and water dripping from top to the stone? i am sure your answer will be no.
In fact, many used them with lather on top. Called them soapstone for that. But I don't really know what barbers did and didn't do. I know pasted strops have been around for a very long time. And I know one of the more traditional ways of honing, was to hone of slurry till the edge undercuts a thin slurry really well and finish on a pasted strop. Shaves very well. But I like the finish of the stone itself better. Barbers didn't use Shaptons either, or Japanese hones, unless they were Japanese barbers of course.

hi_bud_gl said:
I just find out it will not work as you describe. i cannot close my eyes and say Bart you are right edge will come out with slurry in 4 k level and then after dulicot it will act as same as 12k level. In fact i know that is not correct.
You have created that method to make useful FOR everyone . You think every single coticule will put final edge to the straight razors. i am sure that is not POSSIBLE and i know you know this too.
So now, your are calling me a liar.
I'm going to repeat that you can disagree all you want on this forum. But you will learn to keep a respectful tone. This is not SRP. All my statements on this website (and others as well for that matter)are made in total honesty. If I'm wrong, it's out of ignorance, and public corrections are made as soon as new facts shed new light on a matter.
It think that you never really tried any of these honing options we're having this discussion about. Otherwise I would have expected you to report about your experiences, something you never did. I think it is you, the guy with the large hone collection can't bear the idea that one hone could render all other hones not needed. While in fact, they're just all tools to achieve the same goal. If you have one setup, you don't need another one. Is one single Coticule the easiest setup? Let me answer that with a rhetoric question: Is a straight razor the easiest shaving tool?

hi_bud_gl said:
(...)
By using coticule you can sharpen Blade and put good edge to the staright razor but not as good as Eschers edge.
As written elsewhere on this forum: the preference for a certain razor, finished with a certain type of hone or paste, is a very personal affair. I can't make that choice for anyone else. I can only help people to match the outcome on the choice that I made.
That choice has not been the Escher. Too expensive.:rolleyes:
hi_bud_gl said:
if you say IF Bart's says Coticule is more versatile then Norton 4/8 k then that will be wrong. As we know Norton will cut a lot faster and do great work but will lack of the smoothness of the edge.
A weird sentence. Ever since you started posting on Coticule.be, I'm getting this weird feeling that you are mixing sentences of e ghost writer, with sentences of your own. Can't comment on the Norton. I've only tried it on one occasion. Hated the 4K. Felt very gritty.

hi_bud_gl said:
I hope you the best and wish rest of you members good luck have a lot fun.
Well the same you, Sham. You have your ways to get on my nerve, but let's assume that you mean no harm.
Best regards,
Bart.
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
hi_bud_gl said:
Lets say this Bart. Have you ever seen this 2 methods done by old barbers? Of course not. You know why? Do you think they shave with dull Blade? In fact no they didn't.

That's correct. I've been doing some research on that myself and here's what I found about the standard procedure of the old barbers:

Stage 1, Edge peperation:

Pyramid dulling of the edge
- DMT 600 with sprinkles of silicium carbide (about 0.4 grams per square inch of surface); 23 passes
- DMT 1200, 15 passes
- Norton 3000 grit, 12 passes with high pressure
- DMT 1200, only a few VERY light passes on each side
- Norton 3000 grit, 12 passes with light pressure
- Norton 8000 grit, 12 passes with high pressure
- Back to DMT 600 and silicarbide, and all the way up againt to Norton 8k
- COTICULE (La Latneuse), dullicot procedure
- Naniwa SS 10k, 17 passes
- Shapton glass 16k, 13 passes high pressure
- Naniwa SS 10k, 3 very light passes
- Shapton glass 16k, 5 very light passes, repeat with the Naniwa 3 times
- Escher , 15 passes with decrasing pressure
- Back to DMT 600 (this time without silicarbide!), and all the way back to Escher
- Nakayama, about 8 very light passes
- Diamond paste on horse (female) leather strop, 4-5 passes
- Ferrous oxide on camel leather strop, 4-5 passes
- Finishing on leather only

Repeat this procedure about 3-4 times. You should now have a razor that's perferctly dull with the highest grade of polish that it achieveable with reasonnable effort. An ideal preperation for the comming steps of honing which I will perhaps post if I find the time. My research shows that the list of different hones used is tremendous!

glad I could help!
BlueDun
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
OMG! why do all that, I would have thought just taking a previously finished razor, polishing the edge on your best finisher and the dulling on glass would do the trick?

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

BlueDun

Well-Known Member
Sigh ... Ralfy, I have to constitute that there's still a lot for you to learn!
But just hang in there. Listen to the honemeisters and keep practicing. You'll get there eventually!

glad I could help!
BlueDun
 
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Right. A couple of observations, if I may.

  1. [li]Would somebody kindly change the subject? It's making me nauseous. Sham, if you can't even get the name of the method you are trying to discredit here right, why bother at all?[/li]
    [li]Sham, in your opening statement, you indirectly accuse Bart of financially profiting from Coticules (unless I failed to interpret "You don't have any business interest etc." incorrectly (which may well be the case, what with more than 50% of your writings being unintelligible to me based on your language difficulties). Bart kindly overlooked this, but I would like to point out that you are pushing dozens of razors out into the market, not least based on the fact that you keep banging on about your honing skills. This thread for me clearly shows that your self image and my assessment of your honing knowledge vary. Wildly. Which puts your commercial efforts into an entirely new light - in my very humble, and personal, opinion.[/li]
    [li]"In your World Bart you love coticule soooo much(nothing wrong with that if i were in your place i would do the same) that love makes you Blind." This is utter bollocks. Trust me, I have shaved with razors that were honed by people who are very renowned for their honing abilities on the typical progressions, and finished with everything from Japanese natural stones to high grit diamond sprays. I have had the same razors honed by Bart on Coticules (including mine) only. The results were mostly the same, some slightly better, some slightly worse (which is where personal preference comes into play). But the gist is, just because you stubbornly refuse to accept that some people are able to successfully hone razors on Coticules to the highest standards, that does not mean you know anything about honing razors, on Coticules or otherwise. Quite frankly, and with precisely the amount of respect due based on your previous posts on the subject, I find your incessant whingeing boring, and your constant ad hominem attacks a disgrace both to yourself, and the position you hold elsewhere.[/li]
So, tovarishch Sham, why don't you go back to what you do best, ie sell razors and let the members of this board do what they do best, ie hone razors.

Thank you.

Robin
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
:D :D :D
Bluedun. You deep and thorough understanding of sharpening razors is a true asset for SHITCA and all it subsidiaries. But you're wrong about the Camel hide. It is donkey foreskin that you need to get a properly equalized dullness along the entire edge. But I understand your blinding love for Camels. I used to smoke them too.

;)

Thanks mate, after a restless night, wondering if I really was an ignorant idiot, spending most of my free time to mislead other ignorant idiots, I urgently needed something to lighten up the mood.

:thumbup: :D :D
Bart.
 
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