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Have we failed?

The problem is that our Glossarry maintenance volunteer has left the building. I anyone of you would like to further expand and refine our dictionary, please step forward.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Okay, I'll step forward then. If by any means possible, I'd like to see the content published under a Creative Commons non-commercial share alike licence. But you know that already. ;)

Regards,
Robin
 
Robin is much more data-savvy than myself, so most likely better able to do the job.

regards,
Torolf
 
You're too kind, Torolf. At least if by data savvy you mean stubborn, anal retentive and fascist (in the technical sense of these words).

Yo, Bart, how about a joint effort? If not, I suggest that Torolf lead this endeavour, as it calls for diplomatic and moderation skills, not technical ones.

Regards,
Robin
 
Richmondesi: "My "huh, what?" moment was when I first got my La Petite Blanche and did a Unicot edge (following the instructions precisely)."

Paul, was this your first coti? If not, how many did you have to try before you found the right one? 'Seems costly to turn over several stones to find the right one.
 
pinklather said:
Seems costly to turn over several stones to find the right one.
Click to expand...

Pinklather, don't take this post personal, your post is just a drop in an already full bucket.

I think it's quite possible that Paul's first Coticule actually was a La Petite Blanche, but I hope he'll chime in to conform or deny that.

Last night, someone wrote the following in an e-mail:
I find it remarkable how completely immune to a) your personal opinion, and b) reading certain members are.
Click to expand...

It is not only remarkable, it is also completely draining, to go on record time and time again, stating:

There is hardly any difference in the end result of a Coticule. There are differences in abrasive speed and in how many laps it takes to reach a certain outcome, yet those difference are smaller than the difference in honing a extra hollow ground razor and a wedge razor.

We've come to the point, that everyone being remotely experienced with Coticules, confirms that observation, and yet everyone else carries on blaming a lack of results on not having "the right stone".

Yes, there are Coticules, that I like more than others. But that is a very personal preference, that has more to do with how they smell, sound and look than with the results they provide. I have 3 sand shovels in my garden shed. They are identical, and they all can dig a hole quite well. Yet there is one I like best, because it has blood of my hands soaked in the wood of the handle. That creates a bond, I guess.

Anyway,
here's what I propose:

We should write up a text with some common myths about honing in general and Coticules in particular debunked. We should work on that text with most of the seasoned Coticule users till we agree it's something we can all stand behind.
We'll sign it with our names, and it shall be put on the front page of Coticule.be, open to be signed by anyone else who masters these hones in the future and is willing to support what will be know as "basic facts about Coticules and their use".

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
I second that Sir Bart, and was thinking along those lines this very morning myself, I find it amazing that this thread is so large, after all we could have just issued a statement, stating the already in place terms to describe the shaves.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
Ok... I think my head is going to explode.

Words mean things. They are vehicles of thought. Crisp quite literally is defined as brisk. So, why, pray tell, is crisp, in Ralfy Land, beyond brisk? Furthermore, it's quite literally, defined as "fresh, invigorating". So, how is that bordering on "sore"?

To take it one step further, my very own definitions were the chosen convention for understanding those words, and, quite literally "crispy" is the second word in that definition.

Not seeing that, and making those connections without help is enough to drive me insane. Getting the response I did, with a *sigh* thrown in is almost enough to make me leave the forum. It's not that this is a huge deal to me, because in the grand scheme of thing I really don't care. But, it's the same kind of obtuse, "I'm right despite incontrovertible proof that I'm really wrong attitude that I have no time for." Evidence that you provided, by the way.

Pinklather, Yes, my first coticule was the aforementioned La Petite Blanch (sorry for not making that clear, I meant to). Furthermore, it is a small bout that I picked up with every intention of using ONLY for warped or smiling blades because I have a full line of Shaptons... That now almost never get used. I guarantee it's been a year since I used anything above a 2k. Expensive? I got it (at that time) for about $80 including shipping...
 
richmondesi said:
Words mean things. They are vehicles of thought. Crisp quite literally is defined as brisk. So, why, pray tell, is crisp, in Ralfy Land, beyond brisk? Furthermore, it's quite literally, defined as "fresh, invigorating". So, how is that bordering on "sore"?

To take it one step further, my very own definitions were the chosen convention for understanding those words, and, quite literal
ly "crispy" is the second word in that definition.

Not seeing that, and making those connections without help is enough to drive me insane. Getting the response I did, with a *sigh* thrown in is almost enough to make me leave the forum. It's not that this is a huge deal to me, because in the grand scheme of thing I really don't care. But, it's the same kind of obtuse, "I'm right despite incontrovertible proof that I'm really wrong" attitude that I have no time for." Evidence that you provided, by the way.
Click to expand...

I should have learned to stay out of this discussion by now because..

1. I'm not one of the acknowledged coticule experts, and

2. My opinions seem to be unwelcome. But

since good sense and a shy retiring nature was never my strong suit, I'll add a few thoughts anyway.

These definitions were arrived at by a member. They cannot erase the long held beliefs and connotations derived from years of experience and usage in each one of us. That would be exceedingly difficult to overcome.
To me, crisp has a feeling of some discomfort. This is not to be contrary to the laws of the land, but it reflects what "crisp" has meant to me for a lifetime. When I grew up, winters were a bit more harsh that they are now, due to "global warming," or just plain climatic cycles. It's hard to relate the word to a completely different experience.

I see definitions as I see laws. Fluid and subject to individual interpretation. Just as I obey laws that arte good for myself or society, I do not knuckle under to ones that are inane and designed to see if we are stupid enough to follow them. The spoken, or written word, is not something easily quantified because of these reasons. So, while I'll try my best to stay within the definitions set down in communication here, they will always be colored by my own sense of that definition.

That is something tough to overcome, and as I get older, I recognize that everything is not black and white, but a shade of gray. And rigidity, in one's thought and actions are often a sign of one not yet seeing enough of the world.
 
I too have often used the word "crisp", when I spoke about edges I would qualify as "shaveready" (to use a word I generally avoid), but that I found just that little bit too abrasive on my skin. In other words: goo, but not good enough. As a non-native speaker, that's the best word I could think of for describing what I meant. I was using that word long before I came up with the three smoothness desciptors "brisk", "engaging", and "mellow". As explained, I chose them out of words that no one ever used when talking about razor's edges, in the hope that I would avoid a pejorative connotation. I was extremely pleased with Paul's elaboration, because he described the small distinctions between those three descriptors so accurately. That he used the word "crisp" in one of the definitions of terms, never struck me as problematic. The context made it clear enough that it was to be interpret as positive.
After that, I kept using the word crisp, for describing edges that are just, eh well, too crisp to be brisk. If you catch my drift.
I understand now that this habit might have been confusing, and even plain the opposite than who a native speaker would order "crisp" and "brisk", if they were to be considered to describe the difference between a slight beneficial peeling of the skin and a plain scraping effect. I've always used brisk for the beneficial peeling aspect, and crisp is where the scraping starts.

If I need to reconsider that habit, I am all open for suggestions.

I understand that words are important to you, Paul. They are important to me as well, being a sucker for the right word all my life. But it seems to me a discussion about highly individual preferences about razor edges, are already bordering on a discussion about the gender of angels. I would hate to see you leave the forum over a word that needs to describe something of so small significance. In most threads, it is very clear out of the context if someone uses the word crisp in a positive sense or not. Many words have both positive and negative connotation, depending on context.

Please stay with us for a while longer. You're one of our most valued members.
Bart.
 
Being one of the adressed people, I want to add this:

I tried to stay away from so-called "brisk" edges. I had no idea how they feel, but I don´t like the sound of it (meaning the word "brisk").

I would think about either making a simple pattern (A,B,C; 1,2,3) that doesn´t look/sounds/feels like favoring certain edge styles, or inventing totally new words (I´m actually serious about that).

Regards,
Tok
 
Tok said:
Being one of the adressed people, I want to add this:

I tried to stay away from so-called "brisk" edges. I had no idea how they feel, but I don´t like the sound of it (meaning the word "brisk").

I would think about either making a simple pattern (A,B,C; 1,2,3) that doesn´t look/sounds/feels like favoring certain edge styles, or inventing totally new words (I´m actually serious about that).

Regards,
Tok
Click to expand...
The problem is that someone will always arrive to state that He needs a B-Coticule, because some other guy with 2 months of experience on only one Coticule has told him that A-Coticules leave a too crisp edge for finishing.
The problem with forums is that so many will soon adopt a tone of expertise, without first taking the trouble of actually gaining that expertise. And not only that! Pointing out the flaws in the spreader nonsense, and explaining why, is either ignored (if you get lucky), or challenged, by questioning the expert's right to "own the truth".

Hence whatever system we use to describe the skin feel left after a shave, someone will always rape the original idea to exchange it with the faulty assumption that you need a "good one" to be able to hone a razor with a Coticule.

It is within the nature if the cocept forum, and every month, I wonder more if we shouldn't be turning part of this one in a Helpdesk, instead of a forum. Because I fail to see how this thread is ever going to help a new guy mastering his Coticule.

Kind regard,
Bart.
 
BlacknTan said:
I should have learned to stay out of this discussion by now because..

1. I'm not one of the acknowledged coticule experts, and

2. My opinions seem to be unwelcome. But

since good sense and a shy retiring nature was never my strong suit, I'll add a few thoughts anyway.

These definitions were arrived at by a member. They cannot erase the long held beliefs and connotations derived from years of experience and usage in each one of us. That would be exceedingly difficult to overcome.
To me, crisp has a feeling of some discomfort. This is not to be contrary to the laws of the land, but it reflects what "crisp" has meant to me for a lifetime. When I grew up, winters were a bit more harsh that they are now, due to "global warming," or just plain climatic cycles. It's hard to relate the word to a completely different experience.

I see definitions as I see laws. Fluid and subject to individual interpretation. Just as I obey laws that arte good for myself or society, I do not knuckle under to ones that are inane and designed to see if we are stupid enough to follow them. The spoken, or written word, is not something easily quantified because of these reasons. So, while I'll try my best to stay within the definitions set down in communication here, they will always be colored by my own sense of that definition.

That is something tough to overcome, and as I get older, I recognize that everything is not black and white, but a shade of gray. And rigidity, in one's thought and actions are often a sign of one not yet seeing enough of the world.
Click to expand...

Bill,

I'm not sure I know exactly where to start but will start with this (pay special attention to the use of "pleasantly" to describe the cold, and invigorating), and I'll go from the beginning of your post.

You're point 1) you're absolutely right
You're point 2) stop being whinny - you're not a victim, so don't act like one.

3) those definitions were absolutely not derived by a member. They are the definitions as found in the dictionary, and unless I wrote a dictionary that I can't recall, I didn't do it. If you think something means what it absolutely does not mean, as defined by a dictionary, that doesn't mean people are inflexible for pointing out your error. The fact that I used the defined words when describing Bart's descriptors is very much secondary to my point. Words mean things, and when people stop having standards in their communication due to willful misuse of their vehicles of thought, we lose a lot in our discourse.

4) You're right that definitions are fluid over time, but currently, words mean what they mean, and they are up to interpretation to some extent, but you lose all credibility in the conversation, as far as I see it, when you blatantly disregard the fact that "brisk" is one of the meanings of "crisp", yet you try to argue that they don't mean the same thing. Not to mention the fact that as another definition "fresh, invigorating" is used. I can't believe how much I'm having to repeat myself.

5) I hope to all that is holy that when I get older, I don't lose my ability to admit when I'm wrong and take responsibility for my own misconceptions, passing them off as someone else's weakness of character/experience. The minute I do that, I'm ready to pass on to see what awaits me after this life.

6) My absolute favorite thing about being an adult is the choice to associate with those whom I wish to associate. I make a point of exercising that choice. I make a point of associating with people who make decisions based on the merits of the evidence instead of the person making the point, and as I said, I have no time for people who are intentionally obtuse (except for Robin, of course).

Bart,

Of course, you have the prerogative to use whatever words you wish, but I ask you to consider when saying something is too "crisp" to be "brisk", you are effectively saying it is too "brisk" to be "brisk" based on the definitions that Ralfy posted.

Like I said, I don't really care either way.

Take care all. Be well,

Paul
 
Bart, Thank You!

With my still limited view - its not easy to pull together 2 seemingly opposed inputs - volumes of discussions about the differences between rocks, and 'they're all so close it doesn't matter. That seems to be the driver of some of my uninformed questions. 'Don't mean to be a pain with them.

Your post was well crafted and well taken. I appreciate your kind help, and that of others.
 
Richmondesi: Yes, my first coticule was the aforementioned La Petite Blanch (sorry for not making that clear, I meant to). Furthermore, it is a small bout that I picked up with every intention of using ONLY for warped or smiling blades because I have a full line of Shaptons

I appreciate your kind help, Paul.
 
Guys, words each have their connotations, even if they are "identical" in meaning. Really, there's no such thing as words that are identical, merely words that are synonyms (i.e. the same or _nearly_ the same), each with their own connotation (and the occasional fun synonym pair, like irk and vex, which are rot13 for each other!). Feelings get hurt when there are disagreements about the inevitable and slight differences between interpretations. When we try to add technical meanings to words, this gets a little hairier. Throw in prior usage, and we end up with arguments like this. Let's not get started on the linguistic difficulties of compiling dictionaries and thesauri.

Could we get back to looking at fixing the original problem instead of mincing words? (Maybe the best way to do that is to get rid of this three-way distinction?)
 
I find this thread quite interesting, as it shows a natural tendency of people (myself included) for one to adopt a meaning of something, based on other peoples opinion/experience, without actually searching for the real meaning ones-self. I had also thought of "crisp" as meaning an uncomfortable edge - however I hadn't looked up the definition in the dictionary, which as Paul quite correctly points out, means the same as brisk. Each are interchangeable within a sentence to which the overall meaning of said sentence remains unchanged.

Bearing this in mind, as suggested, maybe another word should be used in place of "crisp" to describe an edge which is clearly shaveable, yet undesirable - a last resort as one might think.

I'm not the best person with words, but I believe the word "smarting" http://www.google.com/dictionary?langpair=en|en&q=smarting&hl=en&aq=f fits the bill for an edge that leaves a painful after effect.

Regards,

James
 
towliff said:
Bearing this in mind, as suggested, maybe another word should be used in place of "crisp" to describe an edge which is clearly shaveable, yet undesirable - a last resort as one might think.
Click to expand...

Maybe to save further confusion "Harsh" would suffice?

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 
towliff said:
Bearing this in mind, as suggested, maybe another word should be used in place of "crisp" to describe an edge which is clearly shaveable, yet undesirable - a last resort as one might think.
Click to expand...

For my next magic trick, I'm going to amuse you with the OED definition of "brisk": "A. adj. 1. Sharp or smart in regard to movement (in a praiseworthy sense) quick and active, lively."

For what it's worth, "crisp" is the word with older usage in the relevant context, and "brisk" seems to be the culprit anyway (in several ways, in fact). Might I suggest that we look for a replacement for "brisk" or do away with the distinction?
 
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