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Honing after chip removing

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
Recently, I've bought 2 cheap vintage razors from different sellers. I have chosen the same model( 5/8 hollow grind the Starter from Ro Delorme Paris) which was said to have a good blade. The more expensive one which was advertised as quite new, had 3 chips on the edge : the deeper one was quite 0.5mm and the spine was 0.4 mm less than the other (4.6mm instead of 5mm). I have removed the chips adding 6 layers of tape with the BBW side with slurry of my coti (it took me about one hour, but I think the steel of the blade was rather tender).
Then, I have tried to reach the arm hair shave level with the coti side and milky slurry (no tape) but after 5 series of half X-strokes, it wasn't there. Then I have stuck 2 layers of tape (so the spine width was about 5mm) and performed 3 series of half X-strokes but again, it wasn't there (nowhere on the edge, I was able to shave arm hair).
So, how many series are generally required in that case? or is there something wrong in what I have done ?


Laurent
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with what you have done, I would have used the Coticule side for extra speed, and less tape
The problem you are finding now is, that you have made the bevel with a lot of tape on the spine (6layers) so you will find it takes a while to work that at only 2 layers, the new bevel you are trying to set will get there it will just take you a bit more time, I would try at least another 10 sets of half strokes before I tested the edge again, and I would dull it on glass before I start, that way you can be sure that you have set it properly

Hope this helps and makes sense?

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
thanks for encouraging me, Ralfy
tat2Ralfy said:
I would have used the Coticule side for extra speed, and less tape
I just wanted not to damage the coticule side

Regards

Laurent
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
you won't damnage coticule side, do what ralfy says, plus put black marker along the bevel. hone and if there is a line of black marker along the cutting edge . then you will have to hone untill that marker has gone from the very cutting edge .When it has your bevel will be near on ready.

gary
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
If I understand you well, the blade had missing chips that could clearly be seen with the naked eye.

That kind of damage repair is a bit beyond the powers of a BBW or Coticule. You spend an hour doing something that should have taken you 15 minutes on a 600 grit stone (or sandpaper attached to a flat object). And by applying 6 layers of tape, you only did very literally only half of the required steel removal. And less than half of the work. I'll explain:

Each layer of tape increases the bevel angle with about 3/4 of a degree. That's the estimate with the thickness of typical electrical insulation tape on a 6/8 blade. Your blade was 5/8, so that will augment the angle even a bit more. 6 layers = 6 X 3/4 + something extra. That gives me 20/4 = 5 degrees. As a result your repaired bevel has an angle that's 5 degrees too obtuse than the normal (untaped) bevel.

Here's something that you need to realize very well: augmenting the bevel angle removes mainly steel at the thin side of the edge. This action starts out on a very narrow strip of steel at the tip of the bevel. There's a lot of honing pressure concentrated on that small strop, so things go quite fast. Without realizing it, you used this principle to speed up the process of working out those missing chips. Now, let's look at a drawing:
1

The light green part of the left image is what you removed with the tape attached. The right image shows the amount of steel that needs to be removed to recreate the original bevel angle. If you would calculate the surface area of both light green parts, you'd find that they're exactly the same size. That's why I wrote that you have only done half of the required work. But because you no longer have the advantage of rapid steel removal at a small rim near the very edge, it will actually take a while longer.

That's why a couple sets of halfstrokes is not getting you anywhere. Your Coticule is normally faster than the BBW, but you still need to expect to work 45 minutes or longer to complete the original bevel angle. To prevent excessive spine wear, you can protect the spine with one layer and proceed till you reach arm-hair shave-ability. Refresh the tape when necessary. Finally remove that last layer of tape, predull on glass one last time, and do the last bit of the work.
Personally, I would do only that last phase on a Coticule. I use a DMT 600 for the actual repair work. I would have removed the chips with the edge facing down on the hone, then repaired the bevel with 2 layers of tape, still on the DMT. 2 layers because that allows me to exert extra pressure on the blade, without the resulting flex causes the bevel to flatten out too wide. Finally, I would remove the tape, predull one last time, and perfect the bevel without tape on a Coticule.

I realize this is complicated stuff to fold your mind around. If you have any additional questions, feel free to ask.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
I had assumed that Laurent only had a coti/bbw stone for the work he had at hand? I too would have used a much coarser stone to remove the chip, in my case a 400/1000 grit whetstone, with 2 layers of tape on the spine, then dulled on glass and dilucot as normal.

Of course Sir Barts answer is much more detailed and thorough than mine :thumbup:

Best Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
tat2Ralfy said:
I had assumed that Laurent only had a coti/bbw stone for the work he had at hand?
You were right Ralfy:thumbup: , I only own a coticule:blush: but I have chosen the coticule hone for its versatility.

When I received the chiped razor last saturday, I looked for my 600 grits W/D sand paper but couldn't find it(and didn't want to drive to a car part shop) so I decided to remove the chip with the BBW side of my coti. To speed up the removal I had stuck tapes (in the idea that if it had taken me more than an hour, I would have bought sand paper). I was quite surprised that I succeeded in removing a 0.5mm deep chip!

Finally, I reached the arm hair shave level today after about 20 series of half strokes with 2 layers of tape and had to do selective honing near the point because my rolling stroke was not perfect(I suppose).

The reason why I kept the tape is not "to avoid the spine wear" but rather to have 2 very similar razor with the same spine width (I don't know if the difference of 0,4mm of spine width between these 2 razors was due to manufacturing variation???) to make some shaving experiments

Laurent
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
I have tried Dilucot on that razor. Things seemed to go very good in the dilution stage: the wave in front of the edge became more and more even going from the heel to the toe. The sound also was even:rolleyes: .
Finally, as there was almost no slurry, I rinced the coticule and the razor and perform the 60-X strokes set on the coticule on plain water. And there I guessed there was a problem the strokes :confused: on one side were not as even as on the other. I performed the HHT and get a faint violon play on most of the edge and a low HHT-2 on some place. After a good stropping (60 on coton and 60 on leather), I saw no improvement. After reading Bart's review of Ray's balsa hone, I tried a balsa hone which I had made myself, sparingly coated with cromox. I performed about 15 light strokes and get HHT-1 all along the edge, and on some place HHT-2 and even HHT-3. The stropping didn't improve the results.

So, Am I far from Dilucot success? can I continue the honing process with the coticule with water to improve the result? from where should I begin again the process if I don't want to use CrOx?

I noticed that one bevel was twice as large as the other.


Laurent
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
chti_lolo said:
I performed the HHT and get a faint violon play on most of the edge and a low HHT-2 on some place. After a good stropping (60 on coton and 60 on leather), I saw no improvement.
You're nearly done, but not quite there.
chti_lolo said:
After reading Bart's review of Ray's balsa hone, I tried a balsa hone which I had made myself, sparingly coated with cromox. I performed about 15 light strokes and get HHT-1 all along the edge, and on some place HHT-2 and even HHT-3. The stropping didn't improve the results.
I think your bevel is very near completion, but not entirely. If you've done such a large repair, it's not uncommon to get some responsiveness here and there. I'm going to spare you the lengthly explanation.:)

chti_lolo said:
So, Am I far from Dilucot success? can I continue the honing process with the coticule with water to improve the result? from where should I begin again the process if I don't want to use CrOx?
Please trust me on this and perform one final downstroke on a glass bottle. Do it light and only once. I know you don't want to do this, now that you've come this far, but do it anyway. Check that the razor does not shave any arm hair now. Raise a milk-like slurry on your Coticule and before doing anything add 8 drops of water, so you have a halfway thinned slurry. Put the razor on the narrowest bevel side and start working. How long this takes, depends only on how far the bevel was still off. The fact that it isn't entirely symmetric is irrelevant for how it shaves, but we'll attempt to make it more symmetric. Make sets of 20 halfstrokes on the narrow side and 2 halfstrokes on the wide side. That's right: 2 (two).
Keep an eye on the slurry and add the occasional drop of water to keep the slurry hydrated. Test for shaving arm hair every 3 sets (20/2-20/2-20/2)-check- etc...
As soon as it shaves arm hair again, take it through 10 dilutions of 10/2. Don't be afraid to use a bit of pressure. Rinse everything well, do 3 sets of 10/10 on plain water. Rinse again. Finish with 50 light X-strokes. If it passes the HHT on thick hairs, strop well. Use enough pressure during stropping to feel something happening. Let's call it "gentile pressure".

Whatever happens, if you honed well and strop well, there must be a very clear difference between the HHT post honing and the HHT post stropping. Please keep us posted on your progress.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Bart said:
I'm going to spare you the lengthy explanation.:)

[c] thud.gif [/c]

Bwhahahaha

Wonderful advice as always Sir Bart, I saw your post earlier Laurent, and was going to post a reply myself, Sir Bart has always far surpassed what I had intended to say :thumbup:

Best Wishes and its true you are so very nearly there my friend
Ralfson (Dr)
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
Thanks to both of you:thumbup:

It was just the kind of advice I was expecting.
It might have taken me a lot of time before findind this combination (half milky slurry, 20/2 and 10/1 sets.....)

I'll keep you informed of my progress

:) Regards

Laurent
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
I have followed Bart's advice. And now the bevel is quite symetric :) .
But the HHT on the edge vary : on the second half of the edge (between the heel and the middle) HHT vary from HHT 3 :) to HHT 2 near the middle, and on the second half, it is only HHT 1 (except the last 5mm near the toe where it is HHT 2.
I have shaved with this razor this morning but the shave quality was far below (not as smooth and with irritation)the shave which was delivered by the second razor with unicot edge .
Is there another tip to improve the first half of the edge?

Laurent
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
if i was you you i would just do dilucot again, start at normal milky slurry. this has happend many atime to me. rather than guesing or wasting time. i just do 50 normal x's on my coticule with slurry so i'm working the bevel . then i go straight in to dilucot with normal back and forth strokes. taking your time make sure every stroke is sounding good and cutting on the hone , just diliute right down to water and finish with normal x's on water. sounds like your razor is just not sharp enough. thats why it not so smooth. do 20 laps per half stroke and towards the end do 25 to 30 it won't harm.

hope this improves gary
 

chti_lolo

Well-Known Member
Thanks Gary,

I was thinking of something like that. It is as if the bevel as not the same quality on the first half (especially on one side of the blade): the wave before the edge seems to be good during dilution stage and when I go through X-stroke on plain water the wave is quite different on the 2 sides (I make slow strokes, paying attention to the shape of the wave).


Laurent
 

garyhaywood

Well-Known Member
yeh that s what i always do just either start again . its a pain when every part of the edge is all good , but there is one spot that is just the same quality as the rest. still it may do the job. so its all ways good to test shave and see the differance. my dovo best has alittle wider spot on the bevel and for some reason that part passes hht but not as well as the rest of the dge where the bevl is slightly thinner. trust me i still could'nt figure it out. the razor still shaves so i'm not to fussed .

let us no if it improves

gary
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
garyhaywood said:
my dovo best has alittle wider spot on the bevel and for some reason that part passes hht but not as well as the rest of the dge where the bevl is slightly thinner. trust me i still could'nt figure it out.

Thats because the extra steel in a wider bevel is harder to work IMO, one of the reasons that wedges take so much longer to hone, and the very reason Unicot works so well, no?

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

tat2Ralfy

Well-Known Member
Good idea mate, just stick a layer of tape on and give it 25 on thin slurry, then 60 on water
I will bet you a coffee the hht improves :thumbup:

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
 

Bart

Well-Known Member
chti_lolo said:
I have followed Bart's advice. And now the bevel is quite symetric :) .
But the HHT on the edge vary : on the second half of the edge (between the heel and the middle) HHT vary from HHT 3 :) to HHT 2 near the middle, and on the second half, it is only HHT 1 (except the last 5mm near the toe where it is HHT 2.
I have shaved with this razor this morning but the shave quality was far below (not as smooth and with irritation)the shave which was delivered by the second razor with unicot edge .
Is there another tip to improve the first half of the edge?

Laurent
A said, you could Unicot it at this point. That would avoid all further frustration with this razor. Bur everthing indicates you're nearly there. The variance of HHT-results is probably only cause by small imperfections in your honing stroke.
I think it can all be fixed with some further "finishing" work. I often need to spend some extra laps on part of the edge, after the first HHT when I have completed the entire procedure.

After the amount of work you've done, I have no doubt that the bevel is good. If you still see the fun of it and feel like you could focus your mind on making absolutely flawless strokes, my advice is to put some water on the Coticule, rub it once with a slurry stone, and start doing sets of 10 halfstrokes per side, only aimed at the part of the blade that responds less well the the HHT. Put the index finger on top of that part and just work locally. It doesn't matter that the already sharp heel receives no attention. Make it 4 sets of 10 halfstrokes, but add a drop of water with each set. Next rinse the hone well and add another 2 sets of halfstrokes.

Finally, rinse again and finish with full X-strokes covering the entire length of the blade. Carefull watch the water run up the edge. Put your mind to making it do that. You'll notice that the water runs easily up some parts and less so on other parts. Make it run up those parts as well. I can't explain this: just put your mind to it, apply just enough pressure to make that happen and focus on the spots that respond least. You'll see: it makes a difference.
Keep at it for about 50 X-strokes. Test with the HHT-again. If there's some improvement, but still difference in how the edge responds at different spots, repeat the entire suggestion in this post. It take me longer to type this than it's going to take you doing it.
As long as you see improvement, keep going, till you have that HHT working everywhere, or till you really think you can't do any better.

Strop well. I keep emphasizing this: your Dilucot edge needs to be stropped very well. The step up in HHT-results should be very apparent.

I think you're doing exceedingly well. But Dilucot, combined with a full edge repair is not something one can learn in a few hours.:thumbup:

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
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