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Honing after chip removing

So I have first started from the beginning but couldn't achieve better result.
Then I have followed Bart advice. I got HHT-2 or 3 on thick hair all along the blade. But after stropping there were no real big improvment. I got HHT-3 on thick hair but on medium hair between HHT-1 or 2, I shaved with this razor and the shave was not very smooth. I have reiterated Bart's method on the HHT-1 area (on the first half of the blade) and I could not have better result. It have noticed that the blade was warp on one side in the first half and I thought I have not enough skillness to compensate that flaw (my rolling X-stroke is just so-so:blush: ).

So I tried to refine the edge with 0.5 diamond spray on felt (20 strokes) then on balsa hone with CRO (20 strokes) and I got HHT-3 on medium hair and a little more after stropping. I made a quick shaving test (against the grain on the left side of the neck) and it was smooth :) very close but a little less than my unicot razor.

Is it possible to improve the edge now with the coticule?


Laurent
 
chti_lolo said:
So I have first started from the beginning but couldn't achieve better result.
Then I have followed Bart advice. I got HHT-2 or 3 on thick hair all along the blade. But after stropping there were no real big improvment. I got HHT-3 on thick hair but on medium hair between HHT-1 or 2, I shaved with this razor and the shave was not very smooth.
Click to expand...
Hi Laurent,

I am now almost convinced that we must look at your stropping technique and/or the strops you use. HHT 2-3 straight off the Coticule is good and after stropping such an edge should easily pop hanging hairs at several cm from the holding point, even with finer hairs. If not, there is something wrong with your strops or with how you use them. Can you please elaborate about your strops and how you use them?

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Hi Bart,

HHT 2-3 was achieved with very thick hair (not mine). The strop I use is a SRD strop (2" width) coton and latigo http://www.straightrazordesigns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36&products_id=704

I tighten the strop, and put a very mild pression on the spine while I 'm trying to make contact with the edge with X-strokes. The sound coming from the leather is like a treble zip, zip, zip.... (60 strokes on coton then 60 on smooth leather)

I have also a paddle stop 3" wide with felt pads and smooth leather pad. One felt pad is sparingly coated with 0.5 micron diamond spray (3 pschitt on the felt). So I'm not sure if it is the diamond or the felt by itself which improves the edge.



Hope you can explain was is wrong



Laurent
 
I think you've solved the issue, Laurent. A coticule edge requires good stropping, and in my experience, Latigo strops are not adequate (for the first 6-8 months) to really maximize the edge. Give that strop some time, and you'll work through the oil and wax, and it will develop a nice effective draw. In my opinion, you've solved the riddle
 
chti_lolo said:
Hi Bart,

HHT 2-3 was achieved with very thick hair (not mine). The strop I use is a SRD strop (2" width) coton and latigo http://www.straightrazordesigns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36&products_id=704
Click to expand...
You are sure about the cotton, right? Because that strop is standard sold with a kind of nylon(?) webbed fabric, that I have found to be ineffective for our purposes. If it indeed is equipped with a genuine cotton strap, it should work just fine though. I know the webbing has a dark color. And I imagine the cotton should be white or very light.
You don't need to be afraid to use gentile pressure while stropping. I have addressed stropping in depth in this article. If you only want to read about efficient stropping technique, just scroll down to the subtitle "Stropping routine".

As far as the leather is concerned. That seller has a few excellent strops for sale, but that one is unfortunately not among them. The one I've tried was bumpy, had a very uneven draw, and made it hard to control a good stropping motion. Honesty dictates to state that I've also tried the SRD "Premium IV English Bridle" and found that one to be outstanding. Maybe the Latigo I tried was a drop out, no way to tell. But anyway, if you notice the strop has almost no draw or a very uneven one, than you might want to consider getting a better one, or getting this one looked after. There are guys that can turn a questionable strop into a much better one. Maybe someone can even talk you through it, if you're not afraid of doing some work on the surface of the strop. But that requires a dedicated thread, with more details and some pictures.
In the mean time, I suggest you go with what you find in the article, and try to use the strop as is.

chti_lolo said:
I tighten the strop, and put a very mild pression on the spine while I 'm trying to make contact with the edge with X-strokes.
Click to expand...
That doesn't sound too bad, but do realize that you are working on the edge. Some torque may be in order, but make sure that you've slightly more pressure on the spine than on the edge. The difference in HHT performance, after stropping really should be like night and day.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
While I was typing, Paul beat me to it.:)

Paul, isn't there any way to get some of that oil out of Latigo? Maybe putting a few layers of highly absorbing kitchen paper on top and rubbing with a hot iron? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Bart said:
You are sure about the cotton, right?
Click to expand...
yes, I paid some extra bucks for the coton and it is white.

I don't have any other reference with strop, especially leather as in my area the sellers don't have them in stock, you have to order them seeing them on the catalogue. I have also a latigo pad which goes with my paddle strop and I have been able to maintain the edge of my Dovo for a month without seeing any difference in the shave quality. I have been using the hanging strop for just a week, so .... the latigo doesn't seem to be oily but surely there is some kind of wax on it, the draw doesn't seem to be uneven, but I can not say if it has enough draw because I have only used latigo leather strop.

But I find it very difficult to do the rolling stroke to compensate the warp side of the blade so maybe my strokes have to be improved.

I have another razor whose blade and edges doesn't show flaws, and will try dilucot on it to make sure that the problem doesn't come from my honing technique.


Thanks for the clues



Regards

Laurent
 
Bart said:
While I was typing, Paul beat me to it.:)

Paul, isn't there any way to get some of that oil out of Latigo? Maybe putting a few layers of highly absorbing kitchen paper on top and rubbing with a hot iron? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Click to expand...

Bart,

I really don't know. I know sanding doesn't seem to help at all because of the way it's treated. In fact, the only thing that I know works is a lot of use. It's kind of like horsehide in that regard. While horsehide is nice and feels cool, it just doesn't have the draw of the Premium IV. Both latigo and horsehide just take a lot of time to break in to the point of maximum effectiveness.

The idea of highly absorbent kitchen paper with an iron seems interesting. Another idea may be to cover it with baby powder or cornstarch over night to draw the oil out maybe. I really don't know if that would work or not.

To simulate a lot of use, it may make sense to find very smooth metal pole (pole to a basketball goal seems ideal) and rub the strop on it quite a bit. Also, just thinking out loud. They really are pretty good after all the oil and wax leeches out.

Also, I really like the synthetic component to the strops from a functional standpoint. I get very good results from it and my premium IV. It took a while to get used to the feel, but the results were always excellent.

Best,
 
Hi Laurent,

Sounds like you have a lot of variables going on:rolleyes: (as if we don't all of us, always...)

I have to agree with everything so far suggested, except the iron on your strop. It is not a good idea to apply direct heat to your strop for this purpose. Try this: a disposable rag (like the ones on rolls from the auto shop, a little rough) and some lighter fluid. Maybe use a glove. Douse the rag and scrub lightly and evenly on the face of the strop. Do it again. Test the draw,etc. Depending on how fat the latigo is (I don't have a latigo strop) this should make a welcome change. If you like it, and it is only temporary (a real possibility if the leather is super fat) send me a email for some methods of a more extensive nature. It may also provide the window you need to avoid the problem Paul mentioned with sanding. If you get the surface feeling dryish after a swipe or two, try going over it lightly with some high grit wet/dry, the highest you can get.

Otherwise, I wanted to share a couple finishing tips. As a journeyman coticule aficionado, my edges can lack that little extra that makes us want to use coticules:p As Gary mentioned, it may just not be keen enough. He should have maybe also mentioned the tip I picked up from him with back strokes on the hone. Try 30-50 good stable sets of strokes as if you were stropping the razor on the hone, lightly. This works wonders.

I also dry hone. Not always lightly, depends on the hone. Give this a try. (I have yet to see any microscopic evidence that this is a bad idea, and quite a lot of very positive face evidence)

I also agree with Bart about the pressure while stopping. Think of it this way, what's the worse that can happen? Roll the edge and have to go back to the hone? Unfortunately, not such a terrible result for me:p
Try it out,it sounds like you know where the pressure should be, and I should add that I have not, to date, managed to dull an edge on a strop...

regards,
Torolf
 
Torolf,

I was already hoping that you would chime in with some valuable advice to improve the efficiency of the strop.
But you even managed to sneak in some great alternative strategies for reaching that often evasive final bit of keenness. :thumbup:

By the way, I don't hone dry, there's a standing joke as to why...:) , but I never said there was anything inherently wrong with doing it. Occasionally I do strop on a Coticule, and I usually do that till the surface is dry. For finishing on a Coticule, whatever keeps you going till you've squeezed out the desired keenness, is always a good thing. But in less experienced hands this little tricks are sadly no substitute for practicing a perfectly even honing stroke.

Have a lovely weekend!
Bart.
 
Hi Bart,
I have been a bit busy and just stumbled on this thread... Glad you thought I had something to offer...
I agree with you on technique. One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is how you actually do your stroke. What did it for me was being able to see you live.

How I would describe it is the same motion (fingers, wrist, elbow. Did I mention elbow?) as in stropping. But backwards, of course.

My honing suffered from having been accustomed to sitting at a table with bench stones. I carried those movements to hand held honing. The difference in fluidity and ease are remarkable. Not to mention the edge quality. I am still consciously practicing keeping my wrist frozen as I hone, and only using my elbow and fingers to control the movements.

I believe I am working on the 5% consistently. One could say spoiled:D
As soon as I can get my so-called light box out on the bench, I'll post some new pictures and results from the magic stones I lucked into at the mine.

regards,
Torolf

(re: the standing joke: Well, I don't have anything to say...:rolleyes: But I mention microscopes due to reactions on another forum, not this one...)
 
Thanks Torolf,


As to reduce the number of variables, I too hone sitting at a table. I find it more awkward to hold the stone in my hand.
I manage to freeze my wrist and raise or lower my elbow during the strokes to assure the contact with the hone. My fingers are only used to make smaller adjustments.


TM280 said:
Try this: a disposable rag (like the ones on rolls from the auto shop, a little rough) and some lighter fluid.
Click to expand...
what kind of "lighter fluid" should I use? I 'd rather go with more "natural" products...

I may also try some "stroping" on coti and check if I have enough skillness....


Laurent
 
Hi Laurent,

I understand the desire to stick to "natural" substances. But what is suggested is a method of dissolving oil. Solvents are an effective way of doing this. Lighter fluid is one of the least invasive, and perhaps least "toxic" ways. (zippo type is fine, one could also use naptha)
.
Soap, of course, should be a component of a thorough job, but one is faced with the fact that the carrier for soap is water, and the water and soap would still have to be removed, taking the oil with it. It may be possible to accomplish this mechanically.
You could try a thick lathering, letting it sit, but not dry out, followed by "scraping" the lather off of the surface with a good deal of pressure. I would use a smooth, rounded wooden edge, making sure that my pressure was as even as possible along the whole length of the strop. The idea is to squeegee the soap, water and oil out of the surface.

I don't know how effective this would be but it could be an alternative to solvents. Be aware that this could also stain the surface of the strop, if that is a consideration.

regards,
Torolf
 
Torolf,

Sorry, my english was somehow poor and I hadn't understood "lighter fluid" (so Zippo is gasoline for lighters and Naphta is for dry washing I suppose) and furthermore I'm non smoker;) .
I have also seen more natural substance to remove grease from horse saddle based on liquid black soap.

I am aware that these treatments may stain the leather but what I need is an efficient strop:( ....

thanks for the advice,
 
Never herd of Liquid Black Soap... where does one get it?

But if you are still interested, here are links for Lighter Fluid to give you a good idea what it is (US markets).

http://www.amazon.com/Zippo-12FC-Lighter-Fluid-12OZ/dp/B000K2U3JG

http://www.walgreens.com/store/cata...=G&ec=frgl_&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=sku6020007

They all contain Naphtha, while naphtha is not a "natural" substance it is a petroleum distillate and solvent(I believe also used in the Dry Cleaning establishments).

Naphtha soaked in clean cotton rag will dissolve the oil in the strop and absorb into the rag, then evaporate leaving no trace or residue (except the oil in the rag)... it is efficient... and clean... but it is toxic... so don't drink it:lol:

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Cedric,

It is just what I thought .

The "natural" product I have seen in a sport shop to remove grease from horse saddle (it contains liquid black soap)
http://www.decathlon.fr/entretien-d...nte-id_MAN_10634_8006052.html#fiche_technique
Smythe said:
Never herd of Liquid Black Soap... where does one get it?
Click to expand...
http://www.ombellenature.com/savon-noir-liquide-marius-fabre-entretien-415-598.z.fr.htm

Liquid black soap (olive oil and soda) or soft black soap (linseed oil and soda) was used 40-50 years ago to clean the ground or to do the washing (very dirty linen). The Marseille soap (solid soap) was used to clean not too dirty linen.


I think Zippo like product is more easy to use (but ouside!)


Laurent
 
Has anyone used ground chalk or magnesium powder? I just asked a friend who owns a horse farm, and he uses those after warming (not heating) up the leather with a hair dryer. Works for him...
 
Very strange question, indeed:confused:

Wether to use lighter fluid or horse saddle product to treat my brand new latigo strop...

But the real question for me is :
should I buy a new strop (Kanayama, Old traditionnal, SRD Premium iV...) or should I change the man behind the strop?

and imagine that a light application of Zippo will give me the answer...
.... it's a kind of magic;)


Sorry Robin, I haven't seen your post: ground chalk seem "agressive" to me but should have some chemical effect.
I have also thought of clay (Terre de Sommières) with hair drier but I don't know if it is very efficient
 
Hi Laurent,

I have a Heriloom Red Latigo strop and it was initially very oily too. I got rid of excess of oil by washing with soap. I used old fashioned laundry soap for that. I did following procedure:
1. I put strop leather into big washing bowl, added 10-50 cm water (about 50 degrees C) and washed the leather with soap;
2. I let the leather stay within soap water about 24 hours, then I took the leather out and washed leather and bowl - because both were quite oily;
3. I repeated step 1 and 2... two times more;
4. then I put a strop leather to dry on flat surface (I used glass), covered it with some paper towels and one layer of real towels and then put some books on top of that "sandwich" as weight;
5. after few days I remember that I changed paper towels and towel and then I let it dry under the weight of books until it was completely dry;
6. I put dry leather on flat surface and ironed it - but be warned - you will definitely harm your leather when you use too hot iron. Safe temperature is when you can hold your hand on iron about second or bit less. Using too hot iron burns the leather and makes it hard.

I used a lighter fluid or stain removing petrol for cleaning too, but these will work good mostly for surface cleaning.

Edit: I wish to add that I washed the strop with household brush not by hands only.

Regards,
Urmas
 
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