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Interesting, take a look
- Thread starter The*Cincinnati*Kid
- Start Date
Bart
Well-Known Member
Yes, that booklet has been referenced a couple of times before.
But if we read the next passage:
He also states earlier on:
But my personal favorite is this:
Kind regards,
Bart
If he didn't specifically stated that his was talking about shaving lather, I would say he was talking about what we call slurry. Having tried thick and thin lather, I never could figure out what he's talking about.Napoleon_Leblanc said:
But if we read the next passage:
Now he talks about the "lather of the rubbing", which is indeed what we call "slurry". And in that paragraph it makes total sense with what we observe using our Coticules. But quite interestingly, he is not speaking about Belgian oil hones (his name for Coticules), but about German and Japanee water hones (Thuringer hones).Napoleon_Leblanc said:
He also states earlier on:
With the instruction set he gives, I can believe that. Coticules with shaving soap on top will provide a good touch up, but not much more.Napoleon_Leblanc said:
But my personal favorite is this:
and of course the part where he advices toNapoleon_Leblanc said:
Napoleon_Leblanc said:
Kind regards,
Bart
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
I love that little pamphlet.
Regarding the use of the word "lather" I've been getting an idea that the earlier books use it in reference to slurry, but over time it morphed, to the point where in the early 20th century, it was often used interchangably, and by the 1950's it had come to mean shaving lather exclusively.
Of course, I could be trying to read too much into it...
Cincinnatikid, if you liked that one, you might like this one:http://books.google.com/books?id=Jl...CEMQ6AEwBjigAQ#v=onepage&q=razor hone&f=false
Regarding the use of the word "lather" I've been getting an idea that the earlier books use it in reference to slurry, but over time it morphed, to the point where in the early 20th century, it was often used interchangably, and by the 1950's it had come to mean shaving lather exclusively.
Of course, I could be trying to read too much into it...
Cincinnatikid, if you liked that one, you might like this one:http://books.google.com/books?id=Jl...CEMQ6AEwBjigAQ#v=onepage&q=razor hone&f=false
Bart
Well-Known Member
I think you are correct with that. It also appears that several of these writers, just copied their predecessors without double checking the facts. That could explain Leblanc's -let's admit it- nonsensical advice about the speed difference between thick and thin shaving lather on top of the hone.wdwrx said:
That's a great resource about razor grinds and models. But also this text contains mistakes:wdwrx said:
I presume that mr. Holzapffel might have had German or Austrian ancestors, but still his statement that Coticules (the reference to Old Rock!) are German hones. But his mistake is understandable. Belgian existed as a country only about 30 years when this book was published and Vielsalm was practically at the border with Germany. It is only after the first World-War that a part of Germany was add to Belgian territory and Vielsalm found itself considerably farther away from the newly drawn border.Charles_Holzapffel said:
Later Holzapffel's mistake was copied by a few others source, that I believe eventually led to the rumor of German Coticules, that lives on on the Internet.
Kind regards,
Bart.
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
I'd noticed that to. There are at least a couple of resources that claim the coticule's origin is from Ratisborn. It actually sparked a bit of a history lesson for me as I had to do a bit of google-fu on the history of Belgium to rule out the possibility of shifting borders or changing place names.
I'm not much up on European history.
I'm not much up on European history.
TM280
Well-Known Member
I am not aware of your earlier discussions of urine...thankfully...
But, for the more adventurous (paging Chris...), soaking your strop in urine could deliver the wonder magic strop of all time!! (note double "!")
It could, of course, deliver a mushy degraded length of leather that the odor won't quite come out of as well.
Two days sounds like far too little, especially for a finished, oiled leather, but urine is a traditional step in tanning used precisely for what we prize in a strop: suppleness.
Now, should I roll my strop up to fit in the pot or should I try to find a shallow 60 cm container...
regards,
Torolf
(PS. I swear I wouldn't pee on anyone's strop but my own...)
But, for the more adventurous (paging Chris...), soaking your strop in urine could deliver the wonder magic strop of all time!! (note double "!")
It could, of course, deliver a mushy degraded length of leather that the odor won't quite come out of as well.
Two days sounds like far too little, especially for a finished, oiled leather, but urine is a traditional step in tanning used precisely for what we prize in a strop: suppleness.
Now, should I roll my strop up to fit in the pot or should I try to find a shallow 60 cm container...
regards,
Torolf
(PS. I swear I wouldn't pee on anyone's strop but my own...)
Bart
Well-Known Member
In old recipes to prepare loam for plastering outer wals, they used horse urine to make it waterproof. As such, horse urine was a commercially available product. I would suspect that they would prefer that over human urine.
Torolf, that PS you added, makes me highly suspicious of you...
I would not bid on the strop that this man has in the fundraiser, folks.:sneaky:
Kind regards
Bart.
Torolf, that PS you added, makes me highly suspicious of you...
I would not bid on the strop that this man has in the fundraiser, folks.:sneaky:
Kind regards
Bart.
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
I did a quick search for uric acid online today... found a couple suppliers of Laboratory supplies places that cary it.... I'm not adventurous enough to order any though...
I wonder if vinegar would replicate the effect without the "eeeewwww" factor?
My wife's been pretty tolerant of my hobby so far, but I have this sneaking suspicion she'd draw the line at the soaking a strop in urine thing. Well, not that she'd really care what I did with it, just that I did it somewhere else!
I wonder if vinegar would replicate the effect without the "eeeewwww" factor?
My wife's been pretty tolerant of my hobby so far, but I have this sneaking suspicion she'd draw the line at the soaking a strop in urine thing. Well, not that she'd really care what I did with it, just that I did it somewhere else!
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
hhhmmmm. Change of subject is in order, methinks!
:
I popped in quick for lunch and thought I'd scan that "Turnings and Manipulations" article again.... I was struck by a few things: The method of removing the wire edge - "striking off". I can't help but think that the down-stroke on glass acomplishes much the same, if such a wire edge was present, say from too much stropping.. In the past, i've run a razor straight edge on to clean up a chippy looking edge and I've seen Livi Maestro do something similar in one of his videos before moving on to the polish. Very interesting.
The thumb nail test: Smythe, for one, has dropped a hint or two that he might use this technique, and I know of at least one other proponent. I've tried it, but always with a great deal of trepidation. Can't say I noticed that it affected the edge any.
I can't say I fully understand when the author mentions "in line with the finger, obliquely across the nail" with the implication it may be less harmful to the edge.
Also of note, was the mention of applying a "thicker angle" (is the term used I believe) for coarse beards, and a vague mention of the practice of honing with the spine raised to accomplish that.
Cheers
-Chris
: I popped in quick for lunch and thought I'd scan that "Turnings and Manipulations" article again.... I was struck by a few things: The method of removing the wire edge - "striking off". I can't help but think that the down-stroke on glass acomplishes much the same, if such a wire edge was present, say from too much stropping.. In the past, i've run a razor straight edge on to clean up a chippy looking edge and I've seen Livi Maestro do something similar in one of his videos before moving on to the polish. Very interesting.
The thumb nail test: Smythe, for one, has dropped a hint or two that he might use this technique, and I know of at least one other proponent. I've tried it, but always with a great deal of trepidation. Can't say I noticed that it affected the edge any.
I can't say I fully understand when the author mentions "in line with the finger, obliquely across the nail" with the implication it may be less harmful to the edge.
Also of note, was the mention of applying a "thicker angle" (is the term used I believe) for coarse beards, and a vague mention of the practice of honing with the spine raised to accomplish that.
Cheers
-Chris
tat2Ralfy
Well-Known Member
DJKELLY said:
Bwhahahahaha Bwhahahahahaha that made my day :thumbup:
The thumbnail test is very underated IMHO, and because I rarely use anything but a Coticule to finish a razor I have to say "Wire edge" WTF? heard of it a lot, have never ever seen one though, not on a razor anyway, my kitchen knives get one as I halfstroke them like a mad man on my 1k man made
Regards
Ralfson
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
well, I'm still drawing the line at soaking my strops in urine... but I've just set one to soak in some vinegar.... OK, not a whole strop, but a small piece of Latigo. I cut a small section from a larger chunck of Latigo that is'nt suitable for strop material, and then halved it so i'd have a piece of identical material remaining untreated. I'll see at the end of the day if there's any change. I'm thinking that soaking in Ammonia may be worth a try too.
but I've just set one to soak in some vinegar.... OK, not a whole strop, but a small piece of Latigo. I cut a small section from a larger chunck of Latigo that is'nt suitable for strop material, and then halved it so i'd have a piece of identical material remaining untreated. I'll see at the end of the day if there's any change. I'm thinking that soaking in Ammonia may be worth a try too.
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
I'll tell ya, there's no shortage of cow piss..... But will you volounteer to try said urine soaked strop?:w00t: Would the mail-man even deliver such a smelly package? And what would the beautiful Alicia say about hanging it in the bathroom?... Probably the same thing my wife would say, I'm guessing mad: would be an understatment!)
mad: would be an understatment!)
Smythe
Well-Known Member
The Strike-Off is not necessarily to remove a “wire-edge”… it’s to remove a small amount of steel from the edge because it is too thin and week to form a bevel (filmy-edge).wdwrx said:hhhmmmm. Change of subject is in order, methinks!
I popped in quick for lunch and thought I'd scan that "Turnings and Manipulations" article again.... I was struck by a few things: The method of removing the wire edge - "striking off". I can't help but think that the down-stroke on glass acomplishes much the same, if such a wire edge was present, say from too much stropping.. In the past, i've run a razor straight edge on to clean up a chippy looking edge and I've seen Livi Maestro do something similar in one of his videos before moving on to the polish. Very interesting.
The thumb nail test: Smythe, for one, has dropped a hint or two that he might use this technique, and I know of at least one other proponent. I've tried it, but always with a great deal of trepidation. Can't say I noticed that it affected the edge any.
I can't say I fully understand when the author mentions "in line with the finger, obliquely across the nail" with the implication it may be less harmful to the edge.
Also of note, was the mention of applying a "thicker angle" (is the term used I believe) for coarse beards, and a vague mention of the practice of honing with the spine raised to accomplish that.
Cheers
-Chris
To understand the “filmy-edge” you may have to think of how a razor is manufactured, and the condition the razor at the time they are honing it (yes, they sharpen all razors at the factory before it goes to market).
The razor has just been ground and polished on wheels. It is the wheels that create the concave on each side of the blade. The concaves meet at the very edge, and the result is thin “filmy” steel at the edge (like aluminum foil)… there is NO bevel. A proper cutting edge needs a bevel, however they couldn’t form a bevel on such a thin edge because it is too week and would flex away from the hone. So they strike-off the very thin part of the edge on a course stone, so the edge gets just a little thicker (and stronger), then they commence to form the bevel on the razor hone (sharpen the razor).
The wire-edge is similar to the filmy-edge, but the cause is different. The wire-edge is formed when the bevels meet, but you continue honing (over-honing) and thus forming another film at the edge. In this case, it is indeed a wire because, though the steel is still attached to the bevel, is not part of the bevel (the filmy-edge mentioned previously, was part of the concave).
But as mentioned in the chapter “setting razors”, the wire is more likely to occur if the steel is too soft, the edge is thin, but week, and will flex away from the hone. On the other hand, if steel that is too hard, it will instead fracture and brake off at the very edge and become notched (because it is brittle), so, hard razors will never form a wire by over-honing.
The best steel is not too hard… not too soft… “Today” it is indeed difficult for the average shaver to find a razor the middle.
The TPT is controversial… Folks will gladly accept the TPT when setting the bevel on a course stone… but they often go into “meltdown” if you mention the TPT during the polishing stages or when the blade is “shave ready”.
But my philosophy is this… if at the polishing stage, an edge cannot survive a trip through the thumbnail, then the resulting shave will be lacking, even if the TNT was never used. I have proven this to myself so many times that I am beginning to think it's time to bust this "myth".
TM280
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that post, Smythe. I have had issues with a stone I am testing and I think the TNT may help me figure out what is happening.
Chris,
Both vinegar and ammonia will damage leather, though not to the same degree. I have not found that either imparts beneficial qualities for our purposes, but you may find something else out
If you want to keep the piece after the vinegar bath, it is a good idea to neutralize the acid. Give it a rinse in clear water, then in a bath of baking soda and water. No suggestions for ammonia (I stay away from the stuff...).
regards,
Torolf
PS. eskimos recommended the urine from a young child. Older person's urine would not work as well and cause the leather to last a shorter amount of time...(try explaining that to your wife: )
Chris,
Both vinegar and ammonia will damage leather, though not to the same degree. I have not found that either imparts beneficial qualities for our purposes, but you may find something else out
If you want to keep the piece after the vinegar bath, it is a good idea to neutralize the acid. Give it a rinse in clear water, then in a bath of baking soda and water. No suggestions for ammonia (I stay away from the stuff...).
regards,
Torolf
PS. eskimos recommended the urine from a young child. Older person's urine would not work as well and cause the leather to last a shorter amount of time...(try explaining that to your wife
: )
wdwrx
Well-Known Member
hahahha you guys are bound and determined to have me soak one in actual urine... aren't ya?
Smythe, thanks for that great post. I have to say, I've never run into an over-honed edge, though I have seen the wire edge phenomena on other steels I've used a grinder on on a scale large enough to be visible to the naked eye, so I can understand the principle. Thank heaven's that a coti doesn't seem prone to that.
What technique do you use to do the TNT, Smythe? that "oblique" pass mentioned?
Torolf, it sounds as if you've been down this road before....
I've let that piece soak now for 24 hours (almost), it's certainly wet and floppy, looks like a bit of grain has been raised on the face, I've got it soaking in a baking soda solution now and then I'll let it dry slowly for a few days. Not sure what I'm actually trying to accomplish... I have some nice strops already.... just curiosity, I guess.
Kind regards,
-Chris
Smythe, thanks for that great post. I have to say, I've never run into an over-honed edge, though I have seen the wire edge phenomena on other steels I've used a grinder on on a scale large enough to be visible to the naked eye, so I can understand the principle. Thank heaven's that a coti doesn't seem prone to that.
What technique do you use to do the TNT, Smythe? that "oblique" pass mentioned?
Torolf, it sounds as if you've been down this road before....
I've let that piece soak now for 24 hours (almost), it's certainly wet and floppy, looks like a bit of grain has been raised on the face, I've got it soaking in a baking soda solution now and then I'll let it dry slowly for a few days. Not sure what I'm actually trying to accomplish... I have some nice strops already.... just curiosity, I guess.
Kind regards,
-Chris