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La Nouvelle Veine

Paul

Well-Known Member
I'm evaluating a la nouvelle vein coticule for a friend, and I don't mind admitting that it's a pain trying to maximize the keenness on this one. I've not been able to get a razor keen enough once without having to utilize several different strategies (and lots of additional strokes) after I thought that I should have been done already.

Having spent my efforts on La Petite Blanche, Les Lanteuses, and La Grosse Blanche along with a little dabbling in La Veinnette before, this is a very different strata.

Do any of you have any recommendations for a La Nouvelle Veine specific protocol? Or do I just need to get more skills (most likely)?
 
i don't no what it is .but some times i can spend hours trying to hit hht of a coti then another day i carn't fail, carn't help with that layer, may be its the coticule. have you shaved of it?

or is the point of hht that is not getting there?
 
I have honed 3 different razors on it, with more than one attempt with 2 of them. It took me a while to get my INOX steel Puma ready, but the shave was great after getting there. I had another nondescript Solingen razor that I got terrible shaves off of even though the HHT was a solid 4. Now, I'm working on a Puma nº 95. I just finished honing it, and the HHT was a strong 3 straight off the hone, but it took me 3 different attempts to squeeze out that keenness.

After finishing the normal dilucot procedure

I did 4 rubs of the slurry stone -> dilute to water only -> half strokes on water only (after rinsing the stone) -> 50 laps water only.

That wasn't good (judged by dry shaving ATG on my neck), so I went back to water only half strokes 50 -> 50 laps x stroke water only

After that wasn't good, I repeated it, and the HHT was a 3 without stropping, and the ATG shave on my neck was better. I am yet to do a full shave, but with I feel pretty confident about the outcome of the shave test. It's just a lot harder to squeeze keenness out of than my others.

I feel that my dilution phases need to be tweaked, and I've not figured out yet what I need to do to get it more consistent. My friend has used several razors I've honed, and he loves my edges. I am trying to help him figure out a good, repeatable way to get them himself.
 
From what i heard of that layer it may give one of the smoothest coticule finishes out there
I have also heard rumors that smoother it is harder it will be to reach the needed keenness

8-24-29 and 58 from the vault gives a little information of what to expect
 
La Nouvelle Veines come in 2 kinds. The most I've tested were quite fast on slurry, and dead slow on water, a bit on par with the behavior on water of some BBW's I've tested.

The problem with such a very slow surface (on water) is that it offers merely polishing, but not enough steel removal to make of for the slight deterioration that the tip of the bevel undergoes from riding the hone. Remember that we're dealing with submicron parameters, and that even the smoothest feeling honing surface still looks like a cobble stone path at that submicron level. If the tip deterioration is more than what the hone undoes, you'll have problems with keenness development. The bevel sides will polish nicely, but the edge keenness might stay on the same level, or even revert back a bit to a level where a slightly thicker bevel tip radius can cope.

It helps to play with pressure. More pressure will improve the abrasion, and not necessarily the tip deterioration as much.
Another way to success is to stay at a very thin slurry level, till the edge passes the HHT well and only then do a limited amount of laps on water, or even not at all.
Also Unicot should help. The narrow bevel offers a much better bevel abrasion / tip deterioration ratio. (That is why it works so well in the first place).

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Considering he's new to honing, I really should test unicot more, and stop being so bullheaded :blush:
 
I can sympathize here, do own La Nouvelle Veine.

Dilucot is not easy, because is so SLOW on water, so either I do boost the keenness with CrOx on balsa or divert to Unicot (which for me works *every* time).

The other layer I own is La Dressante (#67) and that one works with standard Dilucot procedure. Is so fast on water that I can see metal mixing in even.

Anyway, I love Unicot and have no problems with using tape, because I only hone every few months.

Regards,
/d
 
This was my first coticule layer and it was tough to learn but I got there with it and have great results when I use it.
Always use thin slurry, even to set a bevel, the slurry is so fast it dulls the razor almost instantly if its too thick. Add a drop of water when you can shave your arm and do less laps than usual, when the slurry is thinned more stall out the dilution steps and make them last a lot longer than usual. When the slurry is mostly water you really need to add more laps than before. The water polish at the end really could benefit from a lot more laps too.
 
Thanks Nick. Do you have a set number of half-strokes you're doing for each dilution step?
 
I usually play it by ear depending on the razor but during slurry phase when the bevel is first being set, I Tend to do 10 half strokes and then flip the razor until the bevel is set. I then dilute with a drop of water and do the same amount until the slurry is about 35% thinner than it used to be at the start of honing. I then add ten half strokes to the steps, making the total 20 strokes for each side. Then when the slurry is near mostly water I may do 40 strokes on each side of the razor and then flip the razor.

I finish with about 150 x strokes just to make sure.

EDIT: I don't usually do a HHT because I don't like the test with my hair type. This layer can make the razor feel dull but in reality it's a very nice shavings edge, the hairs come off your face easily but it feels like you aren't shaving with something dangerously sharp.
 
Disburden said:
This layer can make the razor feel dull but in reality it's a very nice shavings edge, the hairs come off your face easily but it feels like you aren't shaving with something dangerously sharp.
Ah! The touch of a mellow edge. :)

:thumbup: Thanks Nick,

Bart.
 
Mine is from the faster part of the layer. I usually start of with the standard 15 halfstrokes during dilution, but as it starts getting thinner, I start adding more strokes. I also do more dilution steps than normal. Once I get to pure water, then I too finish with about 150 X strokes or so.
 
DG7 said:
Mine is from the faster part of the layer. I usually start of with the standard 15 halfstrokes during dilution, but as it starts getting thinner, I start adding more strokes. I also do more dilution steps than normal. Once I get to pure water, then I too finish with about 150 X strokes or so.

Good to hear we're on the same page. :thumbup:
 
Very good. Thanks guys. I love a mellow edge as well, and I've found these edges to be excellent, albeit elusive at times.

I appreciate having a bit more of a roadmap to success
 
I don't know if it's just my La Nouvelle Veine, but when I get down to just plain water, it acts a bit differently from my Les Lats that I've been concentrating on lately. With just plain water, I don't really know how to describe it, but it kind of has a "buttery" feeling to me, very smooth. I don't really hear any feedback at all, though I can feel some abrasion in my hand. With my Les Lats, I can actually hear it and feel a little more abrasion.

Just thought I'd pass that along... I just barely honed up another razor that wasn't quite there on my LNV, and it seems promising. I'll have to report back tomorrow how it went.
 
DG7 said:
I don't know if it's just my La Nouvelle Veine, but when I get down to just plain water, it acts a bit differently from my Les Lats that I've been concentrating on lately. With just plain water, I don't really know how to describe it, but it kind of has a "buttery" feeling to me, very smooth. I don't really hear any feedback at all, though I can feel some abrasion in my hand. With my Les Lats, I can actually hear it and feel a little more abrasion.

Just thought I'd pass that along... I just barely honed up another razor that wasn't quite there on my LNV, and it seems promising. I'll have to report back tomorrow how it went.

That's how mine feels as well.

It's funny when explaining this layer to people in other forums that don't quite get coticules as much as we do. I try to explain how fast this layer is on slurry, turns black in ten strokes, and I am told that means the stone is soft"

ME: no it's hard, it doesn't even scratch if I try.
RE: Hmmm that doesnt make sense
ME: It's also very slow on water, it's a very bipolar stone
RE: Wait so it's fast on slurry and slow on water? That's impossible.

LOL:lol: :lol:
 
Well, as a follow up, I took the same razor I shaved with yesterday (Les Lats, Dilucot), and shaved with it again today (La Nouvelle Veine, Dilucot). It's a Friodur, if anyone cares.

It wasn't quite up to my standard when shaving off of the Les Lats, but gave me an acceptable shave (I hurried a bit, I think). This morning with the La Nouvelle Veine, it was a bit better, and to me noticeably smoother. I'll probably experiment some more with Gary's tips on that were posted on the Dilucot page, but I'm happy with the results.

I still need to figure out my La Nouvelle Veine, but here are some more observations:

In just a few half strokes with slurry, it starts turning gray. I don't get black, but it gets to be a pretty dark gray fairly quickly.
I don't know if this is best, but I start off with 15 half strokes during dilution, and start increasing the number of strokes as I dilute. By the end, I'm at around 30 half strokes per dilution.
I don't know how many dilution steps I did, but it was a lot more than with my Les Lats, probably double.
I do about 150 X strokes on plain water.

Again, I still need to figure this out more, and I'm wondering if I'm diluting too slowly, but I really noticed the difference in smoothness on the same razor on the next day with a different Coticule.
 
A wise person said:
...Remember that we're dealing with submicron parameters, and that even the smoothest feeling honing surface still looks like a cobble stone path at that submicron level. If the tip deterioration is more than what the hone undoes, you'll have problems with keenness development. The bevel sides will polish nicely, but the edge keenness might stay on the same level, or even revert back a bit to a level where a slightly thicker bevel tip radius can cope.
Maybe it might be worthwhile to have a quick look with...dare I say it??...a microscope? :lol:

I just got one of those ~$30.00 USB microscopes, and while I can get along just fine without it, I think it really adds another dimension to the feedback you're getting - particularly in difficult situations. If you like, I can box it up and ship it out to you for a trial run, Paul.
 
Thanks, Steve. I actually have a USB microscope and a small hand held one that served me fine before I grew out of my cruisers :D
 
richmondesi said:
Thanks, Steve. I actually have a USB microscope and a small hand held one that served me fine before I grew out of my cruisers :D
As Ralfy would post, "The Peak, check out the Peak". Definitely not a Tonka. Many times I cannot feel a minor chip that my 25x will spot instantly. And, frequently when there is a chip, I think there is a good chance of corrosion that may be holding the edge off the hone a little. Don't even care, but when it isn't working the scope is my first choice. YP, Denny
p.s. The Peak is a glass lensed, erecting scope that costs about $75.
 
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