Received my new Coticule # 7 Today

[garyhaywood]

Just one thing i noticed with mine is that the edge on some razors especialy my TI can be a tad crispy and i no you described that in your write up and its not aproblem as still shaves smooth/crispy withch is differant. But if i wanted to eliminate that crispiness would it be a good ides to say finish on athew laps on my other coticule.Bart what would you do? What i will do is compare soon.

That is exactly what I have read in one of the old documents about Coticule honing. Professional sharpeners used to travel around and visit barbershops to hone the razors, scissors and other tools. Other people could bring in their dull razor and it would get sharpened at the next visit of the traveling sharpener. Such services still exist today, but they no longer posses razor sharpening knowledge. According to the source I read, they used to rely on fast Coticules for rapid action, and finish on the finer ones.
Personally I never found any reason to do that in my own practice. Maybe my face isn't all that sensitive. If I assessed Coticule n°3 (not n°7) as a "tad more crispy", I was really only talking about a faint impression. But you can surely replace that impression with finishing the edge on another one.

As a matter of fact, I am currently struggling with n°15 of the Vault. It's my first encounter with "La Grosse Blanche". A layer that was very highly regarded in the heydays of Coticules. It feels completely different than all other Coticules I honed on. Finer at any rate, both in feel and when viewed with magnification. Unicot delivers the smoothest edge ever. But I haven't managed yet to get keen enough Dilucot results. Maybe this one is a finisher only?
I'm only halfway with a proper assessment, only mentioning it because it relates to the current topic.

As i say its mainly on my TI Some how i think its the steel. I used on my puma with just water and that edge is so smooth it unreal so i wonder if it just how TI is meant to feel

When honing TI's I often found it beneficial to add a layer of tape, notably on the Silverwings, that showed micro-chipping at the original honing angle.I believe Thiers Issard designs their razors for sharpening on a pasted strop. By its very nature, a pasted strop convexes the bevel a little, which steepens the angle just the same. I'm not one to attribute much differences to honing with or without tape, but in this case, I have noticed clear improvement in the occurrence of micro-chips, and a smoother edge as result.

Best regards,
Bart.

Very interesting in your reply, Because when i honed on dilucot method i was passing hht. The shave was great a little crispier but having said that this silver wing was allways like this from new and it was prehoned by invisable edge.

Whwn i used my prevous coti still great shave but lacking more smoothness when i stropped on issards paste i could'nt believe the differance on my face. What i'm doing now is trying to achieve that woth my new coti with out issards paste and i could live with out it but noing the differance it makes i might as well.

The other night when i shaved the shave was fine untill i hit the chin and the razor felt like it had a slight jagid egde. So i looked under my loop and i was sure that i could see the tiniest micro chips in a couple of areas realy small but i thought could it marks at the edge any way i rehoned it and the cutting edge as a nice straight even line no chips so i rekon there was some slight micro chips.

What do you think bart should i put a unicot bevel on the razor or just rehone with one layer of tape.or maybe just strop on paste issards. What would you do?

 

[justin]

I imagine any "crispness" left by your Coticule will probably be smoothed out after a couple weeks from stropping on linen. Though, you probably don't shave with a single razor for two weeks straight. In a practical sense, I say go for the paste with the TI. Or you could do like 900 laps on linen! :w00t: (I wonder what the difference would be paste vs a ton of linen laps).

Anywho, I've been busy with school the past two days. I've been having trouble getting this razor to pop hairs off the Coticule. I'm going to work on it when I get home. I have another razor coming in the mail probably tomorrow, so we'll see how that compares.

 

[garyhaywood]

I just rehoned on one layer of tapeusing dilucot passing hht on of coti i will strop tomorrow and shave see if its any differant if not i will strop on issards paste. I don't think i ever used the same razor for two weeks your most likly right i did have 25 razors i no down to ten i'm going to use one untill it needs touch up and then move to next razor and start experimenting just how well my coti does refresh my blades with just water.

 

[Bart]

What do you think bart should i put a unicot bevel on the razor or just rehone with one layer of tape.or maybe just strop on paste issards. What would you do?

It indeed is probably the benefit of the Issard paste that it get's rid of the micro chipping, or at least smoothens it.

I would dull on glass, reset the bevel with one layer of tape and opt for the Unicot procedure with a second layer of tape. On a Silverwing, I expect that to make quite a difference.

Bart.

 

[garyhaywood]

Bart i have just honed on one layer of tape dilucot method passing hht perfect ran the razor down my bear arm and it feels nice i will shave with it see how it goes if still the same i will add two layers og tape and 30misty slurry 50 plain water to make it unicot method and try that sound ok to you. the razor would satisfy most people i just feel it could and can be a little softer on my face.

 

[Bart]

I have honed quite a few TI Silverwings. They are the only modern razors I need to tape for a great edge. Perhaps something with the extremely hard steel?
Please keep me posted, I 'm really curious for your outcome.

Bart.

 

[garyhaywood]

Well i just been reading up on TI silverwing special edition and most people say they feel differant on there face due to harder steel.

I will post tomorrow.

 

[garyhaywood]

Shaved this morning the razor was pasing hht of hone and after stropping absalutly no probs on finer hair. This is after honing on one layer of tape using standard dilucot method.

The shave was smoother. But in the past thew weeks i have honed this same TI of all my coticules and had good shaves smooth enough for most people but i am getting to no the differance between real smmoth and just smooth. So i no this razor has more to offer and costing £279.00 so it should. And in the past issards paste as transformed the razor into just that ultra smooth but i'm trying to achieve same smoothness of just coticules which is smooth as we all no. I'm finding its just my TI's that are left with a crispier edge i have 3 TI's in total.I'm sure its due to harder steel which gives a differanr feel.

In my bathroom i have issards past on my cotton side tm strop. So i finished halve my face in cluding halve my chin and upper lip this time the razor had no drag on my tash area which is a great sign the razor is sharp enough and also swooped around my chin which i find is a good sign of sharpenough but still a little crisp.

Rather than adding a second bevel like i was going to it was quiker while i was still latherd up on one side to do 20 light strokes on my issards paste followed by linen litigo then horse hide as normal.

And i can honestly say the razor was ultra smooth the paste seemed to work once again on this razor why i don't no how long the razor edge will stay like this i don't no but it calmed the razor down and trans formed it to more silky feeling and glided a little better on my second pass i added 10 lps on cro.ox to further polish and it was perfect . I would love to try second bevel just to see if it can make a differance but the strop was more convinient at the time.

I always hone and shave of coticule alone if i'm happy i would not use paste at all as it would'nt make any differance like wise with my puma. It seems some steels do need a differant aproach and i think like you said bart may be they are designed to be used with paste for sharpening.

The other thing i'd like to point out is i newsto use paste to get my edges sharper which i kinda felt like i was cheating as i could'nt achieve the sahrpness from my hone. Now i would never use paste in that way i make sure i can shave of hone perfect i'd only use paste to polish the dge and give little more glide or spot more smoothness only if nesacerry.

 

[garyhaywood]

I just honed an ebay razor using unicot method this time. I had to use dmt1200 to rebuild bevel then i took over with halv strokes on my coti which got rid of dmt1200 scratches in no time and the blade was easily shaving arm hair so i did another 80 laps on milkt slurry to just make sure and refine a little more then i added one layer of tape followed by 30 fine slurry 50 on plian water btw this was my second layer of tape as i started with one layer to set bevel. Straight of the hone i was passing hht no problems better than i can get of dilucot method. once stropped hht absalutly with flying in colours. This method is a lot quiker and easier i find not shaved yet as i shaved this morning but i'm sure the razor will shave great. The tpt also realy grabbed with the secondry bevel felt so keen as sticky as toffee can get.

I must admit it was that quik i could do ten a day with dilucot method i'd be struggling it takes a lot of concentration as you must no .

 

[Bart]

Those were 2 great posts, Gary.

Personally, I don't consider the use of pastes "cheating". If that delivers a better edge on the TI, why not just go with it?

When I was a beginning straight razor shaver I used to lean heavily on red Dovo paste to get my edges sharp. That is something entirely different than what you described here. Pasting to disguise a louzy honing job is a bad idea.
But using a pasted strop to get that last bit of comfort out of an edge that otherwise obstinately refuses to completely yield to the hone, is nothing to be ashamed of, in my opinion.

Thanks for posting, Gary,

Bart.

 

[garyhaywood]

Thats what i was thinking at least i no i can use the paste if needed and i must say i quite surprised at how well the issards paste works despite what i have read about it and its easy to get hold of which is a bonus.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I use Paste, there I said it! :scared:
I use Dovo Black, on a soft hanging strop, it lets me get that edge Smoooth, 20 laps then 30 on Linen pasted with Dovo white, then 60 on clean dovo leather, as Gary said its not to get a sharper edge but a smoother one, not on every hone and every blade, I am guessing with experience and patience I can get super slick without Paste, I know Sir Bart does, My Dovo honed by Him is the smoothest blade I ever used, I didnt know Straights could be that smooth!!
I will say that again. I DIDNT KNOW STRAIGHTS COULD BE THAT SMOOTH!
I know Sir Bart didnt use paste because He told me :thumbup:

 

[Bart]

Well, eh, the Free Honing Service promises a "Coticule honed edge".
From that viewpoint, I would consider it cheating if I started pasting the edges.
If that means I have to send an edge out that could be smoother in some instances, so be it. The purpose is to experience a Coticule honed edge.

Furthermore, I consider the use of pastes something that needs to be decided by the end-user and not by the one that hones the razor.
There's a world of possibilities when it comes to pastes: many possible abrasives and a choice of possible media than can carry the abrasives. Each with their own advantages and disadvantages. And even more personal preference than in the realm of hones.

I only have limited experience with Chromium Oxide on a leather loom strop.

I am a believer in the concept of the "fin". "Fin" in the meaning of the French word for "End", not in the meaning of some Y-shape that is drawn out of the very edge. But no matter how thin we managed to hone the very edge, there's always an extremely narrow strip of steal that's still erratic. I believe stropping aims to align the extremely thin fragments of steel so that all fragments point straight ahead.
Here's a picture I borrowed from the famous knife sharpening paper, by professor John D. Verhoeven at the Iowa state university. It shows a 3000 times magnified view, looked from straight above the very edge of a razor, honed on a 6000 grit hone. I have boosted the contrast a bit.
The original document can be found here: www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/knifeshexps.pdf

This edge is unstropped. You can clearly see the steel fragments that could have better alignment.

I believe it is this alignment we can so clearly observe in the improvement of the HHT-results, after the first stropping of a freshly honed razor.
I also hypothesize that some steels have larger fragments after honing than others, and that not all steels respond equally well to the first stropping.
That theory at least offer some explanation for the behavior of the extremely hard steel of a TI Silvering, and why it benefits from a few laps on a strop that was loaded with abrasives.
It's a theory. Nothing more.

Bart.

 

[justin]

Well, I rehoned using the Unicot method, and it was the best I'd gotten so for. It was much better than my last attempts. A DFS, almost BBS. I'm still not there yet. I can't pass the HHT off the hone yet.

Hey Gary, sounds like you have no choice but to use the paste. I never understood some of the crazy progressions people use on SRP that all end in paste. Shapton 16k > Shapton 30 > 0.5 Chromium Oxide > .25 Diamond spray.: or Coticule > Thuringien > Escher > 0.5 ChrOx. Call me naive, but I think some people blow honing waaaay out of the water. Now I need to learn how to use this Coticule to its fullest, then I can laugh at all the people that use 5 stones + paste to hone their razors.

Justin

 

[garyhaywood]

I could of easily settled for the edge of my silver wing its hard to explain but the razor easily shaved me and was smooth in its own way but with a more crunchy a sound to hit sound rough but not as bad as it sounds if any one wants to try some issards paste theres some on ebay in green packet it only £3.99 deliverd so it is good value i like cro.5 that can come in handy too. I just got a lovely inox puma from a honemeister in usa it was finished on 0.5 to 0.25 diamond paste the shave was fine i added 50 laps on water on my new coiti and it is now ultra smooth and i realy would say slightly keener of this coti all though maybe it glides better which makes it feel keener so there must of been enough cutting power with water to up the edge the shave of this razor just how i like it.Getting a razor shaving i find is not as hard as people think now getting sharp and smooth that's where it gets trickier.

Justin
after unicot method i find hht passes realy much easier than dilucot method unicot method reaches keenes much quiker. I just redull razor after razor and kept practicing you will pass on unicot if you keep practicing i use a couple of old razors for this
once you pass hht you will see the shave will be even better if not perfect. like bart say you need a good linen leather strop if you in uk i have a couple of brand new canvas backed dovos still packaged i'm going to sell them much cheaper than any vendor i would put them on market place but for some reason i carn't upload photos on here i will look into it. cheers gary

 

[garyhaywood]

I just honed an ebay razor using unicot method this time. I had to use dmt1200 to rebuild bevel then i took over with halv strokes on my coti which got rid of dmt1200 scratches in no time and the blade was easily shaving arm hair so i did another 80 laps on milkt slurry to just make sure and refine a little more then i added one layer of tape followed by 30 fine slurry 50 on plian water btw this was my second layer of tape as i started with one layer to set bevel. Straight of the hone i was passing hht no problems better than i can get of dilucot method. once stropped hht absalutly with flying in colours. This method is a lot quiker and easier i find not shaved yet as i shaved this morning but i'm sure the razor will shave great. The tpt also realy grabbed with the secondry bevel felt so keen as sticky as toffee can get.

I must admit it was that quik i could do ten a day with dilucot method i'd be struggling it takes a lot of concentration as you must no .

Just shaved this morning with the razor honed on unicot method smooth as a daisy much differant feel ti TI i think i will try TI with unicot bevel just to see if there any differance

 

[Bart]

Well, I rehoned using the Unicot method, and it was the best I'd gotten so for. It was much better than my last attempts. A DFS, almost BBS. I'm still not there yet. I can't pass the HHT off the hone yet.

Don't worry too much about it. Your HHT might be difficult to pass. That razor might be a stubborn one. You can't really tell before you gained some more experience, preferably on more than one razor (I'm not saying you need to own a whole bunch of razors to become a successful honer). Your razor does pass the HHT after you stropped it, right? Coming of a Coticule, that means that you have managed to get very good keenness. Because the edges are completely smooth, they need very high keenness to perform well. No microscopical serrations to help the edge penetrate the whiskers. (no serrations to grab skin either )
Anyway, passing the HHT straight of the Coticule, is the ultimate of what you can achieve, but it might take some practice to reach that point of skill.

Since your edge is withing good limits, just go with 10-20 laps on a CrO pasted paddle strop. It will make all the difference for you. As you become better on the hone, you'll start to notice at some point, that it starts to make far less difference.

If you don't have any CrO, drop me an e-mail, I'll send you a pasted strop and some CrO for free.


Bart.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Don't worry too much about it. Your HHT might be difficult to pass. That razor might be a stubborn one. You can't really tell before you gained some more experience, preferably on more than one razor (I'm not saying you need to own a whole bunch of razors to become a successful honer). Your razor does pass the HHT after you stropped it, right? Coming of a Coticule, that means that you have managed to get very good keenness. Because the edges are completely smooth, they need very high keenness to perform well. No microscopical serrations to help the edge penetrate the whiskers. (no serrations to grab skin either )
Anyway, passing the HHT straight of the Coticule, is the ultimate of what you can achieve, but it might take some practice to reach that point of skill.

Since your edge is withing good limits, just go with 10-20 laps on a CrO pasted paddle strop. It will make all the difference for you. As you become better on the hone, you'll start to notice at some point, that it starts to make far less difference.

If you don't have any CrO, drop me an e-mail, I'll send you a pasted strop and some CrO for free.


Bart.

Absolutely Spot on IMHO, if you dont have the strop and CrO go for it Justin,
I would love one. There sometimes is a feeling of cheating or failure when we dont get ultimate results straight off the Hone, to me this simply isn't true, we are after all manipulating Metal, and sometimes we need more than 1 tool for that.

Also if you need another Razor to test yourself on I can send you one out, might not be the prettiest but I will clean polish and hone 1 of my vintage to be restored ones if it helps?
you can always send it back when you dont need it anymore

 

[justin]

Don't worry too much about it. Your HHT might be difficult to pass. That razor might be a stubborn one. You can't really tell before you gained some more experience, preferably on more than one razor (I'm not saying you need to own a whole bunch of razors to become a successful honer).

Yeah, I figured it would help to try different razors. I just got one in the mail. A "Muller's Extra Quality", never heard of it, but it looks nice, and it isn't from Pakistan. : It has some very minute chips, which I might try to get out on the Coticule tonight, but I might have to wait for the 600 grit diamond hone to arrive.

Your razor does pass the HHT after you stropped it, right?

Yep.

There sometimes is a feeling of cheating or failure when we dont get ultimate results straight off the Hone, to me this simply isn't true, we are after all manipulating Metal, and sometimes we need more than 1 tool for that.

After all, it's the shave that matters.

Thanks guys. For being a bunch of strangers you sure are a kind group of fellows!

 

[justin]

Alright, I got some progress tonight. I gave it 60 of the lightest laps I could. I took a break every 10-20 laps, I've basically been pecking at it the whole evening. I can now pass at HHT-2. :w00t: I'll strop, and HHT it tomorrow, then give it a test shave, then see if I can get it to pass HHT-3 off the hone.