too much water on coti?

[justalex]

Hey guys I was wondering, can you have too much water when honing - especially when finishing - on a coticule. The coti I have has smoothed itself out alot from when I got it and seems super smooth and super hard. And when honing on it with water, it feels like honing on a glass table.

I'm still experimenting with finishing on my coti and it feels like it dulls razors on water. So would reducing the amount of water on the hone speed it up somewhat and release more garnets?

kind regards
Alex

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Hi Alex, when you say "feels like its getting duller" how do you mean? are you using the HHT to gauge it?

Using less water will not give you a sharper edge, quite the reverse in fact, release garnets as your finishing (auto slurry)and they will dull the edge, often stones benefit from being used when finishing under, as I have found with my LPB

So no too much water wont cause the problem you seem to having

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[garyhaywood]

i agree with ralfy. if you don't like the feel of water honing, use shaving lather, this will controll the blade more so and you may find you prefer it.

 

[Disburden]

The only way I can see too much water being a factor is if it runs on your hands, making you lose control of your stone or razor....:scared:

 

[torbenbp]

I agree Gary..I find it very hard to control using water only.

It`s a very different issue with light slurry,the razor sticks much better to the hone.
But when the friction is low -like on water- the razor seems to go all over the place. I`ve very often experienced a razor getting dull on water only. But I`m a terrible honer so that might explain it.

Torbs

 

[justalex]

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I've been using the HHT to gauge it and I'll get a razor almost there (violin, HHT-1 or so) and I'll hone on water, wash the stone completely, make sure the razor doesn't have any residue hairs or fluff from wiping it off and I'll hone 50 to 100 laps and it'll sometimes go to a less prominent violin or not violin at all, and then I'll get it back again and I'll go back and forth on water.

I know exactly what your talking about torben, today I honed with one stroke of the slurry stone and got great results! HHT-4 after stropping right along the whole blade! (I've never had this before) without finishing on water. So I think your right, my technique isn't up to par and the very slight slurry is holding the razor nice and steady. Its just replicating the results thats my problem...

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So if I understand correctly, a super fast coti will still release garnets while on water, limiting the keenness of the potential edge, and so need to be rinsed more often while finishing? I initially thought a super soft coti would have more chance of auto slurrying because it being softer, any friction would break off garnets easier. Now I'm really going to confuse myself, but can you then have a super hard coti thats very fast on water and a super soft coti thats very slow on water and how hard it is has nothing to do with how fast or slow it is? oh I forgot to mention I did the fingernail test to see how hard the coti was and it didn't leave a hint of a mark and Gary's examined it as well - as were on the same continent and said it was a fast hard coti, if that helps.

I'll try the lather as well Gary, see how that turns out... more experimentation

kind regards
Alex

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Their all pretty hard to me

Anyway, hard or soft doesn't really relate to speed, fast on slurry doesn't always mean fast on water le vienette for example, tend to be fast on slurry and slow on water, where as Le Petite Blanche are fast on water and slurry.

A super fast Coticule doesnt indicate one that will release garnets on water, a Coticule that auto slurries does, remember when finishing on water, its the exposed part of the garnets that are embedded in the surface of the stone that are doing the work, if they break free, the resulting "full sized" garnets are able to connect with the very edge of the blade, and dulling will occur.

And remember, when we are talking about fast and slow, theres no great void between one extreme and the other, I believe its more that some are faster than others, and some are slower, if you catch my drift?

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[justalex]

I thought that was the problem with a BBW that the garnets didn't stick out enough so it dulled the razors edge if used on water?

kind regards
Alex

 

[tat2Ralfy]

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Quite the reverse, on BBW's the garnet are a little thinner on the ground as it were, making them excellent finishers once you know how, if the garnets didnt stick out enough they simply wouldnt work, for the garnets to strike the very edge of the blade, and dull it, they need to be exposed enough to break free due to their physical size

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[justalex]

ah, I understand now, would it be worth experimenting with the BBW? it seems rougher and feels like I have more control over the razor when honing on it.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I love honing on the BBW, we did some extensive research, and produced a paper proving it could be done :thumbup:

The BBW edges require the following procedure:
Perform halfstrokes on slurry with milk-like consistency till the edge shaves arm hair.
Perfect the bevel with 50 laps on halfway thinned slurry.
Apply one layer of tape. Perform 20 strokes on a very thin slurry. Rinse razor and BBW.
Rub the BBW back and forth ONCE with the slurry stone (apply gentle pressure).
Finish the razor with 60 laps in stropping direction.

Or:

Raise a dense slurry on the BBW. Dense, almost cream-like but do not allow it to become grainy.
Add a drop of water at the first sign of it. Dull razor on glass.
Hone on dense slurry with sets of 50 halfstrokes, till razor shaves arm hair.
Add 100 X-strokes, on slurry that's just the tiniest bit less dense. (add a few drops of water)
Rinse BBW. Rub with slurry stone back and forth once, with some pressure.
Finish edge with 100 light laps. Strop well with 60 on linen and 60 on leather.

The first procedure above is the easiest "Uniblue" and I recommend you try that first, the second is harder to master, but it is my favourite method.
Bear in mind that none of this will help if you havent yet developed the skills to hone well

Regards
Ralfson

 

[justalex]

I think I'm more inconsistent than anything else. My edges and spine wear are even on all of the razors I've honed, even a smilie one which I was particularly pleased with its finishing the edge to the last half micron thats getting me!

is the second method without tape? and could the BBW be used as just a finisher after the coti on light slurry/water?

kind regards
Alex

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Yep the second method is without tape, and yes you can use the BBW as a finisher after the Coticule with water, there would no advantage to that though, a Coticule is just as good a finisher, and easier to master imho, where I find the BBW comes into its own, when used with a Coticule , is when you cant get the HHT just as good as you would like, if you wet the BBW and rub it with the slurry stone just two or three times, making a misty slurry, then give it a couple of sets of 30 X strokes, return to the Coticule with water and perform another couple of sets of 30, I find it brings the HHT straight up :thumbup:

When honing on just the Coticule, if you find that your finishing is off, it oftens helps to back up a little, and make a very misty slurry, do sets of 15 halfstrokes, and dilute through to water, finishing on water as before

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[justalex]

I've been trying that on Gary's advice, just that every time I would go back to water and it wouldn't improve that much. I think I need to practice my water strokes, very slowly, seems to be the only thing I can think of. If I'm getting a better HHT off of loose garnets then that means I'm messing it up when it goes to water and I'll try lather too.

thanks guys, you've been a great help, back to the honing board.

all the best
Alex

 

[tat2Ralfy]

You may find you wont get a huge improvement on water. esp if your HHT is good before you go to the water, what you should find is a slight improvement in the hht, which improves even more after stropping, and of course the edges finished on water are far far nicer on the face

Keep at it, it has a way of working out and becoming very very simple when it does :thumbup:

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[garyhaywood]

alex i've seen a thew coticules since yours. If i remeber rightly it was pritty fast on slurry.

on water i could not tell a slow one to mderate, but if i remeber rightly yours did swarf up on water with half strokes? so i can only persume its not in the slow spectrum on water. how would you rate your shaves of your coticule? good enough to shave or slight pulling or resistants etc. or realy pulling. I get hht that arr'nt as good as i'd like , and the razor is still very shavable, may be not out standing, but does a nice job. sounds like your very close, but just not as close as you'd like. I'll say one thing, its easy when it works, but bloody hard when it does'nt. i still have hard times, and i have found that i have had better lok with some coticules than others. try not to be tempted to use any other coticules, that one will payoff, and you will be so chuffed. I can only imagine you won't be so happy if you have to use paste or unicot. Reason why your want to get a good dilucot edge with a single bevel. I've even used unicot more and more. have you tryed a unicot edge ? if so what was your shaves like?. if you get unicot edge shaving great, then your stroke must be fine, if not then it could be your stroke. i find you need a nice stroke for unicot.

gary

 

[justalex]

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thats the one, it swarfed up quite a bit when I was finishing on water. I lapped it with the BBW I have and it swarfs up far less and has made it far easier to work with when finishing on it, it also feels smoother as well.

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I've been testing the razors about twice a day on my face and they don't give razor burn even after a second two pass shave, and they shave pretty decent, they don't pull, but don't glide either.

I took the razor that I got a good hht off of a one stroke slurry and decided I would miss out the halfstrokes to rule them out as a factor. I did 50 xstrokes and have ended up with a good HHT3 maybe 4 in some spots. I also gave it a tiny bit more pressure on the linen. I've started to feel it on the linen smooth itself out as I'm stropping on it more so I went to 80 laps and that seemed to give a much more definitive hht. I haven't shaved with it yet, but I shaved with it off the slurry and it was pretty comfortable, so I can only imagine its going to be better.

It might be a good tip for beginners to check the hht off the slurry, and if its not good enough refresh the slurry and go from there. Because I thought the hht came from the water part. For me it gave a better understanding of where each stage can get to before going to water and isolates areas making it easier to find a fault in technique and focus on that area. I was going back and forward wondering what was wrong

Now I know wher I'm heading and I just need to refine my technique and hopefully be hitting hht4 and 5's very soon.


Your right, I don't like using pastes I tried them and they were nice, but too easy and I like the skill of the coti. better I unicotted a couple of edges and they were nice, but I'm a necessity guy and I would only use unicot if I was in a rush or totally fed up with getting to grips with the coti or in 10 years time if I have a wife or kids and can't be bothered finding the coti edge, it'll always be handy to have a quick escape route to a good edge

cheers Alex

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Great work Sir Alex

Just so you, depending on your test hair, a HHT3 off the stone is usually good enough, HHT4 can sometimes result is shave which is a little too harsh, a problem I remember gary having at one time

Keep up the good work :thumbup:

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[justalex]

I'm enjoying the HHT part of it as well. If I can pop a thick, stiff, non elastic hair, I'm happy, but if I'm popping elastic hard to grip, medium to thin hairs I'm over the moon and usually good to shave. I know I'm supposed to get a batch but I use the harder to cut hairs as a gauge as well as the thick, clean stiff hairs.

regards Alex

 

[garyhaywood]

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yes that is very true. a desent 3 of stone is good to go. i found a real high hht can result in a crisp or slightly harsh edge.

gary