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who said coticule prices are getting high?

Tok said:
Yeah, well, fetishism might be a harsh word… but I see myself asking, whether i should buy another one from another layer, just out of curiousity… and another one, and… well, you see my point. Maybe it´s just me… Not that i lick my hones or such things:p

Regards, Tok

Yeah, but the thing here is that for the most part, we try to maintain a semblance of restraint.
 
Tok said:
Well, you can´t make a forum without any fetishism, can you? I mean, most of us are kind of coticule-fetishists, aren´t we? How many of us do really have only one stone and don´t think about buying another one;) ?
Maybe I used the wrong word. English is not my native language. I could also have used "gear hoarders".
If you want to do that because, being human, it gives a burst of satisfaction to acquire stuff, be my guest. I don't care, and I'm sure the guys at Ardennes won't mind. Perhaps you want to collect them for their beauty? Fine. Maybe you see them as a good financial investment? Great. It's just that, being the founder of this website and all, I'm not prepared to go along with justifying that behavior for anything else than it is. For sharpening razors you only need one Coticule. The possible differences in outcome are much more defined by other factors than by differences between various specimen:
Those factors are, more or less in order of importance:
1. your competence to sharpen. If you cannot unleash your one Coticule beyond 90% of its full potential, you're not going to get that missing 10% by purchasing an other one. Quite the contrary.
2. differences between razors. Steel quality, but also the grind (from full hollow to wedge), actual bevel angle, are of greater influence in how a razor feels and shaves,that any difference between Coticules I have ever experienced.
3. shaving variables. Beard prep, the season (winter or summertime) and how much your skin has been exposed to the elements, the soap or cream used, varying pressure and shaving angles. They all contribute more to the result being qualified as brisk, engaging or mellow, that the properties of your Coticule.
4. stropping variables. Can make a more significant difference in how an edge preforms than the typical difference between one Coticule and the next.

Tok said:
Now, because we are talking about money and I don´t want to open a new thread for this: When exactly will the prices rise and will there be a list to look at?
There is a thread. That thread was linked in this thread, only a few posts ago.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Ha! This place.... :) this website is like no other. At least as far as I know.

If nothing, this forum, and the people here, will make me think.

I could speak volumes, unfortunately my typing skills aren't up to the task.

AD's, whatever... I'm still in my first year. I got 'em. But I know myself, and I know i want to keep it simple. Tools are important to me though; I've made a living working with them, and I enjoy the feeling of being the steward of a well used, and trusted, tool. I enjoy using tools that I've grown accustomed to, and the loyalty that a good tools shows to me, I like to re-pay. Anyone that has worked with their hands for a living knows what I mean. It's not like a new cell phone or a new TV.
Good tools aren't just things i own,or have, or hoard, but things that enable me to achieve self-fulfillment. I like to know i have, and I've learned the value of having, the best I can afford.

Without having anything so defined as a "philosophy", I've spent my life doing things for myself. I repair and maintain my own 13 yr. old truck, (don't ask me about swmbo's vehicle;) ) I've only ever owned one house, and I've reno'd it myself. I reapir my own appliances, and I've even done minor field surgery on my own self.
9 of the 15 razors I own, I've restored or, at least, rescaled, myself. I've made my own strops (and nice ones too). Sending a razor to someone else was never going to be an option for me. Especially with Canada Post's rates, which makes a $20.00 hone job worth something like $50.00. I'm an independent guy, to say the least, and I actively battle the consumerism that is so rampant in our culture... and I'll tell ya, that's a losing battle. My only option was to learn to hone. But that shit costs money. And, man, YMMV. And there is always an uncertainty: Could it be better? Is this the best I can do? Especially with shaving, which is a pretty personal thing. It doesn't take long, and you an end up with more stuff than you want. (I've got $150 worth Suehiro hones, great for knives, but, I swear, they cut random serrations into a straight's edge.)

So, whatever.... I've got a bunch of stuff. It's just that. It's shit I use to shave. To lose it all, aside from the usual sense of loss, the biggest blow to me would be the loss of independence. I'd give it all the extra stuff away, but that would be foolish; I had to earn that money in the first place, but selling stuff isn't really my thing either. And you never know.... someday, i might need it.;)

Coti's though.... WTH is up with them? What the hell is this strange affiliation I feel with them? I've got a bunch of stones....(some nice ones too) and nothing grabbed me the way my first coti did. And the shaves... i was pretty much ready to say that Straight shaving wasn't really my thing. It took me forever to get a good edge with one. Forever. (too stubborn to unicot) But when they were there, they were shaves like I'd never had in my life. Enough to keep me going. Enough to engage my fascination.

More random musings.... maybe I should start a blog... or at least a new thread. ha!:D

Cheers,
-Chris
 
Nothing wrong with selling razors… except! There is a mood among some sellers, where certain “truths” are hidden (not mentioned) from the prospective buyer, for example:
-If the razor is warped (and most competent restorers know if it is)… it is not mentioned.
-If the razor didn’t shave well (let’s say it shaved well for the first few shaves but then quickly looses its keen)… the fact is not mentioned
-Very few sellers (yes I am speaking on some of the most popular sellers of restored razors) show the razor after it is honed… they will snap photos of the razor before honing… (so you don’t see the hone-were until you get the thing in hand)… But it’s a great way to sell a restored razor at NOS price (did I hear you say new shaver?).

-NOS means: un-honed, un-sharpened, un-used… if it’s been made “shave ready” it’s no longer New Old Stock… Sorry, but in this case… you can’t have your cake and eat it… but it’s a great way to sell a “used” razor at NOS price (did I hear you say new shaver?).
-If it is honed (shave ready) but somehow the seller has the balls to say “it has zero hone-were”… then he should also say it was honed with tape or the spine was raised while honing, because any idiot knows impossible to hone a razor and yet have zero hone-were on the spine... unless, see above. but it's a great way to sell a razor that was once NOS at NOS price (did I hear you say new shaver?).

-Some folks sell razors for $40, but most of those razors would be regarded as eBay beaters… in other words, it’s probably worth less than $10 including shipping, but the seller somehow manage to convince themselves (and others) that the sale price includes honing service… Again, what a great way to make a few dollars off those who know not better… what?... did I hear you say “New member”?).

-Selling a “combo” hone, but there is no photo of the side where the yellow is thin”... need I say more?

Here is another… folks buy stuff, and test, and if the thing is discovered to be no good, they simply hock it back on eBay or forum Classifieds as something of value, and adopt the attitude “if it don’t work for me, then there is a good chance it will work for someone else”… but the truth most likely, some other poor sap suffers (especially when he is new to vintage shaving equipment). It happens with all shaving gear, but most often razors… whereas they “sell” their mistakes and don’t give a s**t.


As for that (unfortunate but popular) individual, I have only this comment; There are some who get themselves “locked” into a pattern of belief, and the more enlightened among us will regard them as “set in their ways”. They repeat the same thing day in day out without variation… without thought, without imagination… and refuse to accept anything contrary to the belief in that established pattern.
None are so blind as he who lacks vision.

OK the pressure has gone down, the venting has stopped… for now…:sneaky:
 
Nice one, Cedric. And one of the things that really got me thinking about two years ago. Here is the gist.

If you are even remotely competent at working with eBay sniper tools, you can get serviceable razors for under USD 10 in decent amounts. Fixing scales is not that difficult, either. Besides, OK looking scales can be had for USD 10 or less. Provided it is a hollow ground blade in halfway decent state, cleaning and fixing takes less than an hour. Then you sell.

Check the prices here or here. Compare them to the prices in the same forum three years ago. Then compare them to this. What do you see?

First, the prices for razors have risen sharply. Even more so by the usual suspects, ie the hyped brands like W&B (I've yet to find one I would keep), Dubl Duck (if you had the choice between German beer and German export beer, which one would you buy? Thought so...), or Filarmonica (you could get two new Revisor razors for the price of one, but they would have scales worth the name). Others are going up, like the Swedes (got relatives in Sweden? Get rich quick!!!1).

Second, there is a growing number of people cashing in on the market situation. More people looking for straight razors, less good ones in the market, resulting in the sale of razors no-one would have bought three years ago. Not that there really is a shortage. There is a guy who runs a market stall here in Berlin who has several boxes (not shoe boxes, but moving boxes, the big kind) of NOS Solingen razors. No name ones (and a few with names, too). He sells them for 40-60 EUR, which is a realistic price. Then there are probably thousands of heirlooms somewhere in this country, but no-one knows what they are any more. I was lucky and got a few from makers whose names are long since forgotten. They are great razors. One has to keep in mind that the "big brand names" from Solingen had subcontracted major parts of their production to artisans. People were making razors in their homes, and some then sold excess products on the side. But the old Crafts and Trades Regulation Code was still in place, and not just anyone could sell products in Germany. I have said it many times before, but please familiarise yourselves with the proper meaning of the word Meister. It has little, if anything, to do with the US English use of it. Apart from the legal aspects, it might apply to Bart, in a way. Not that he was properly trained and educated in the honing craft, but with his background in maths and physics, as well as business administration, and his teaching, he is the closest thing. But in one big forum in particular, anyone capable of honing razors is called a honemeister. Marketeering 101: We need more buzzwords, Captain!

Third, certain people keep stirring it. One particular reason I hate forums as a means and a goal at the same time is the need for recognition. The second law of magic: People are stupid. And lazy. In times like these, with attention spans short of the duration of a Fox news interview, they want to be spoon fed. Or, in more friendly terms, people learn by different means. I read technical documentation for fun. I read a lot in general (meaning 500-1500 pages per week). I am reasonably good at turning written information into action. Others need videos, sound clips, or quizzes. But most of all, people need a canonical source of information. Not to air my dirty linen in public, but there were several heated arguments (some of them public, which is why I can comment on them here) with regards to a certain Wiki. My point was: 'The sole purpose of a forum is discussion. But discussion for its own sake is a semi-intelligent exercise in mental masturbation. The ultimate purpose of a forum should be to aggregate, amalgamate, and refine the salient pieces of information into one article, then keep polishing it until it shines. No first person narrative, no slang, jargon or superlatives. Wikipedia's Manual of Style is the way to go.' Mind you, English is certainly not my first language, and I find it exceedingly difficult to meet these quality standards. But this proposal was not accepted. Two main reasons being, 'forums are fun, library is boring' [sic!], and 'we need to engage people in conversation.' Excusez-moi, but I do not need to be engaged in conversation. People like me like their peace and quiet, and a good read on top of that. I want hard and fast, well researched and quality controlled information. I do not want to wade through endless threads with a signal/noise ratio worse than MTV's. I genuinely do not believe that forums have a good potential to actually educate people, but that there is far more to be gained from one well written article with audio-visual support material. Want to know about UniCot honing, buddy? Read the article here, and watch the video. Got any further questions? Ask in the forum, then submit a suggestion for improving the original article. That is the way good information is produced.

But, of course, it is not the way to become a big name in the scene. However, you need a big name in the scene if you want to commercialise you hobby. I have received honemeister honed razors that actually pulled. And I mean, pulled. No way were they test shaved. One ended up with Bart, and came back as one of my all time favourite razors. I have since re-honed it, and can attest to the fact that a trained monkey could hone that razor with his eyes closed (well, I did not try the latter part, but certainly the former).

Yet, did it ever occur to you that there might be a relation between razors sold, and razors commercially honed? I mean, USD 20 for honing one razor can actually be a lot of fun, especially if you retain the right to accept the problem cases (warped, smiling, wedge). A lot. And I am not even talking about the tax evasion aspect, yet.

You know, I was really lucky. I met quite a few people who told me they refused to sell me certain razors while I was on auto pilot in shopping spree land. I wanted a Filarmonica but got a Mehl. I wanted a Dubl Duck but got a Dorko. I wanted a W&B and... errr got five of them, and they all sucked, and I hate W&B, and... I digress. The thing is, beginners need sound, independent, unbiased advice. 'Dubl Ducks are the best because they are easy to hone' is neither. 'Find a 5/8 and a 6/8 in decent shape from Solingen, preferably from someone who certifiably knows what he is doing and does not overcharge' is, in my opinion. If I ever should become part of a team of people willing to write a beginners guide worth its name, Dubl Duck, Filarmonica, or W&B will not play a part in it, except as a warning to others.

Anyone got a Puma 89 with rubber and box for sale?

Regards,
Robin
 
:lol:

I posted on a forum about how I never had a Sheffield blade that was worth owning, and was kindly sent one that was "good". Of course, I got all the usual advice: "did you lap your hone?", "have you sent it to a pro?", you know the story... Well, the "good" one came and it sucked too. I do like my Double Duck, it was a Christmas present from my in-laws, it shaves really well, and it's in great shape. I will say that I have a much better idea of what I'm looking for now, but Sheffield and Filarmonica aren't on the list B)
 
I think one often underestimated phenomenon is self justification. Like this:

  1. [li]I do not need more than one razor. But everyone says I do. I'll have another one.[/li]
    [li]Okay, this is really different. I wonder what else there is.[/li]
    [li](30 razors later) Eh! Most if not all of them are nice. I wonder if there is anything else.[/li]
    [li]RAD loser: Razor XZY, honed on an ABC progression and stropped on 123 strops by the light of a full moon (I can do that for you, it's only USD 20) will change your life.[/li]
    [li]Wow. Those are USD 350 - they must be good...[/li]
    [li](two Filli's, two Butchi's and some other hyped crap with childish (and misspelled) names later) Interesting. I don't notice a difference in the result. But I paid so much money for this, and have even bought the ABC progression and the 123 strops - they must be better. I refuse to accept that they are not.[/li]
And so the legend of the FilliButchiDublSuxi brands was born.

Regards,
Robin

P.S. If you own any of the razors maligned above, and love it more than your wife/mother/sheep, that is great. I am not saying they are bad (the razors, I wouldn't know about your loved ones), just hyped and overpriced.
 
Third, certain people keep stirring it. One particular reason I hate forums as a means and a goal at the same time is the need for recognition. The second law of magic: People are stupid. And lazy. In times like these, with attention spans short of the duration of a Fox news interview, they want to be spoon fed. Or, in more friendly terms, people learn by different means. I read technical documentation for fun. I read a lot in general (meaning 500-1500 pages per week)...My point was: 'The sole purpose of a forum is discussion. But discussion for its own sake is a semi-intelligent exercise in mental masturbation. The ultimate purpose of a forum should be to aggregate, amalgamate, and refine the salient pieces of information into one article, then keep polishing it until it shines. No first person narrative, no slang, jargon or superlatives.
Jesus freaking Christ, Robin...why are you here?

You are in completely the wrong place. What you want is not a forum, but a resource. You want standards. You want authority. What you want is your OWN BLOG. What in God's name makes you think an internet forum is the place for that? Who the hell are you to define what a forum should be for everyone else? Forums are social exercises. Even a forum dedicated to a specific topic is just a place to host conversation about that topic. Why can't you accept that? It is what it is...and if you don't like that, then you should be doing something else.

And who the hell are you to insult the people having that conversation? If you have a problem with them then BOW THE HELL OUT. There is no call to insult people whom you don't even know, no call to throw stones from hiding at people who can't defend themselves. Astonishing...what gall.
Excusez-moi, but I do not need to be engaged in conversation. People like me like their peace and quiet, and a good read on top of that. I want hard and fast, well researched and quality controlled information. I do not want to wade through endless threads with a signal/noise ratio worse than MTV's.

People like you should not be on an internet forum.
 
JimR said:
One particular reason I hate forums as a means and a goal at the same time is the need for recognition.
Jesus freaking Christ, Robin...why are you here?
Because this forum is not a means and a goal at the same time. It produces meaningful results.

JimR said:
You are in completely the wrong place. What you want is not a forum, but a resource. You want standards. You want authority.
I do certainly not want authority. Well, I want an authority, which I called a canonical source of information. Taking the guesswork out of simple things like dragging a razor across a stone leaves more room for enjoying the shave. If you prefer to leave people in a murk, that is fine by me, but not what I would call a useful purpose for any internet site.

And what happens if you let fanboys lead fanboys can be seen on other sites (or, more precise, forums with some stuff attached to them): no love is lost for the hobby. It is all about "I want X", or "I hate you for sniping Y", or "I envy your Z".

JimR said:
What you want is your OWN BLOG. What in God's name makes you think an internet forum is the place for that? Who the hell are you to define what a forum should be for everyone else? Forums are social exercises. Even a forum dedicated to a specific topic is just a place to host conversation about that topic. Why can't you accept that? It is what it is...and if you don't like that, then you should be doing something else.
Maybe you were not around before the September that never ended, but I can still show you hundreds of sites that are different. But that is beside the point I was making. The point being (whilst on the topic of price increases), I think it worthwhile to keep in mind that there is a simple market mechanism at work in "the shaving scene" that is not very obvious to the beginner or casual user. I invite you to prove me wrong on this point, and I will gladly admit that I was wrong if you can.

Regards,
Robin
 
I think Jim misunderstood my remarks (email sent to him to this effect). I did not mean to denigrate the forum users. The problem I was trying to point out was their owners and senior members, because they shape the way in which a forum runs.

So, apologies for this misunderstanding. Carry on with the show.

Thanks,
Robin
 
Premise:
JimR said:
Who the hell are you to define what a forum should be for everyone else?
(...)conclusion:
JimR said:
People like you should not be on an internet forum.

I'm surprised and confused. Until further notice, there's free speech on this forum. But that doesn't mean there won't be opposition. Within that opposition, please make an effort of playing the ball, not the man.

Kind regards,
Bart.
 
Robin, I don't even know what "The September that never ended" means, but I apparently wasn't there.

But when I read someone on a forum write "I hate forums" and "people [on forums, I assume] are stupid and lazy" and "People like me don't need to be engaged in conversation," the feeling that arises is basically, this person (and people like him) is in the wrong place for whatever he is looking for.

Bart, my conclusion was thus made--Robin says he hates forums, that they should not be conversations, and that people need authority...it is not a particularly long leap to assume that that person shouldn't be on a forum, and instead should be making his home somewhere that has those qualities. It's kind of hard to separate those ideas from the person writing them, so playing the ball and not the person is pretty difficult.
 
JimR said:
Robin, I don't even know what "The September that never ended" means, but I apparently wasn't there.

But when I read someone on a forum write "I hate forums" and "people [on forums, I assume] are stupid and lazy" and "People like me don't need to be engaged in conversation," the feeling that arises is basically, this person (and people like him) is in the wrong place for whatever he is looking for.

Bart, my conclusion was thus made--Robin says he hates forums, that they should not be conversations, and that people need authority...it is not a particularly long leap to assume that that person shouldn't be on a forum, and instead should be making his home somewhere that has those qualities. It's kind of hard to separate those ideas from the person writing them, so playing the ball and not the person is pretty difficult.
Difficult but not impossible, is what I like to think.

Quite frankly, you are fabricating his words into something that I did not even read in between the lines of his post.

An example. He said "I hate forums as a means and a goal at the same time". You quoted it correctly in your first reply and even bolded the stipulation he made. I read that as "I hate certain forums, namely those that serve as a means and a goal at the same time." I have a fair idea what he tries to say with that, and I certainly do not interpret it as "I hate forums - full stop".
But enough said about the form of the discussion.

The point for me is, that this particular forum serves in the first place as a public help desk, where people who need extra help with certain aspects of a particular activity, can call upon peers for assistance. That function is not particularly served by people who have different goals. The most interfering goals are: a hidden agenda to sell goods, justification of compulsive acquisition syndrome, imposing of (pseudo)expertise.
The sad truth is, that if nothing is done to contain that kind of conduct, it will sooner or later take over the forum and install a imaginary reality that has little bearing with the real world.
 
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