Your favourite coticule layer

[DJKELLY]

Where can I get five or six of those "barber hone" thingies?

Honestly, Paul, your blog and posts make it pretty clear that you have a healthy attitude toward hones and honing, and yet you admit to starting a collection the La Petit Blanches, I think you said for their beauty as well as function. That seems perfectly balanced to me.

When I was younger especially, but still some today (in my advanced condition) I can be very exuberant when I stumble upon a new technique or learn something that will make my life easier, or make a new friend. I don't think I have come across too often here as "hyperbolic", but my point is that exuberance could easily be mistaken for it. To be totally honest, I have been told to "breathe" a few times by new friends. And, BTW, I know you are not talking about me, and neither am I.

Again, I can't think of anything that would be more fun than to get a bunch of quality honers from this place together. I would love to see Jared, Chris, you, Ray,....you name it sharing their skills. I tell you for sure, I would have to curb my enthusiasm and exuberance and might be a bit hyperbolic after all.

And, since you are a very literal guy, I know the hyperbole you are talking about and I hate it, too. I wonder why you like Robin so much.

Edit: This might be a good place to say that even though I give grief to those I like, it is all good natured. I have never had a single unkind, malicious thought toward any regular on this forum and can promise you it would be obvious if I did. Again, Paul, this is just a convenient spot and in no way pertains to you, my friend.
I'm going flying now. Denny

 

[vgeorge]

Where can I get five or six of those "barber hone" thingies?

If you are serious, my new friend, I can send you a couple. (Never sure when you are serious.)

 

[DJKELLY]

Where can I get five or six of those "barber hone" thingies?

If you are serious, my new friend, I can send you a couple. (Never sure when you are serious.)

No thanks, Vbo, and don't feel pregnant about not getting me. The word "thingies" completely negates any real desire to have a new barber's hone. Thanks for the thought, seriously. Denny

 

[vgeorge]

..and don't feel pregnant about not getting me. The word "thingies" completely negates any real desire to have a new barber's hone.

One of these days, Cap'n Kelly, I am going to know enough to translate your words.

I understand Emmanuel, no problem. You are the real Greek to me.

Pregnant? In a men's shaving forum?

I am holding tight to my vintage coticules as I type these.

Thanks for the thought, seriously. Denny

You are very welcome. Any time especially for a service man - language impediments overlooked.

Cheers.

 

[garyhaywood]

HatePlace.com - The Truth About Coticules... as I see it

"Recently, there have been several guys developing one stone honing techniques"

Is that the one stone honing technique were they use two stones?

As said, this thread is not about what is the BEST Coticule layer, or indeed whether Coticules are better than anything else, I dont believe there is a single member here that ever said Coticules are better than anything else?

This thread is about our favorites layers, and what makes them so.

Regards
Ralfson (dr)

I said that (BEST) in Jest, Ralfy. I was confident that everyone would get that after reading my blog entry saying that there's no magic and I had no idea why my favorite was LPB. Sorry for the confusion

We also both know (I assume) that a dilu-"whatever stone you want to take" works without the second stone to set a bevel (last night I did it on a Barbers Hone). Those videos demonstrate using another stone to set the bevel just as we would all do on a razor that would take 10+ minutes to set, so I don't have a problem with it... I can understand your flippant attitude, especially when considering who's developing those techniques, though.

But, since you brought up that part not proclaiming them better than anything else, let's discuss that. I agree with you, but you have to recognize that the fact there's a whole site dedicated to them and there so much hype and hyperbole around them, some who don't read every single post here assume that we are saying they are the best or at least think they are.

You need to understand something about me: I HATE (not being sarcastic, funny, jesting... at all) hyperbole, and I run away from products where there's too much hyperbole around. So, one of the things that drew me to coticules was the very unassuming stone doing everything well, and the fact that it wasn't being hyped. Now, there's a lot of attention brought to them, and a lot of drama. I'm not getting into that, but I'm not going to hype my preferences as "the" anything because it's not my style. I'm supporting anything that brings a minimalist/skill based solution in lieu of a full set of synthetics. I don't care the source of the information.

So, the point of the blog entry was two fold: 1) to make a point that no one means coticules are really "better" than another system just because that's their preference, and 2) they are not magical... Albeit there are some who are using "magical" to describe their shaving edge.

As said, last night's barber hone experiment was very positive, but that doesn't mean I'm hyping that as the best solution. I've gotten great results on every system I've tried. I stick with the coticule because I enjoy the process.

i must say i have read the article before and i enjoyed reading it again
.

gary

 

[Bart]

Having a website about the natural whetstone with a heritage of a couple of centuries doesn't mean it is being hyped. In fact, those who tried to read my first and second post in this thread should understand how alert the associates of this website are for hyperbole and the spreading of unconfirmed information as "fact". It is not because the owner and a couple lieutenants of one forum stand at the sideline shouting "hyperbole!!", because that's a strategy their particular agenda dictates, that there is any real basis for these allegations. People sometimes make a lot of smoke, in the hope to spread the idea of a fire.
The same can be said for the so-called "drama". It is not our fault that the same people couldn't accept the recently published BBW-study for what it is, and again made allegations about hype and caused some drama in the margin. And it is even less the fault of the rocks themselves. Which brings me to the properties of the Belgian whetstones.
Of course I think they are better than everything else I have tried. I also think that Highland Park 18y is the best single malt whisky I've ever tasted. But does that mean I am going to chime in threads that enthusiastically deal with other hones or whiskys, to point out that they are drinking the wrong one, or to stress the fact that I have honed 1000's of razors and feel there is a "better" solution than the one discussed?
I consider it a disgrace for Coticules to dwell into this kind of human intolerance for what other people prefer to drink or the tools they love to use. Coticules are perfectly capable to speak for themselves. They've been around for centuries and survived without hyperbole and sleazy forums politics. Their brilliance is to be discovered for those who care to find out. I love it when a newly arrived member discovers some of the aspects that continues to make my heart beat faster about these rocks. New member's enthusiasm is where we -I speak on behalf of all associates - find the energy to continue with Coticule.be. But I feel that enthusiasm cannot and should not be promoted by a pedantic sort of praise. It is honest and unbiased information that helps a new guy discover the rewards of a good Coticule edge. And he is fully free to discover that is not for him, should that be the case. I have friends who could't care less for Highland Park 18y. Or for the Coticule they use. As long as it shaves well, right?

I am not going to prove or disprove what a barber's hone can or cannot do. But whomever wants to explore them, is fully invited to start a dedicated thread in the Razor's Inn. And we will make sure that such a thread does not get deranged by guys who cannot stand that a positive project is started about a tool they do not want to explore themselves. That kind of navel gazing protectionism has no place on this forum.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[danjared]

I am not going to prove or disprove what a barber's hone can or cannot do. But whomever wants to explore them, is fully invited to start a dedicated thread in the Razor's Inn. And we will make sure that such a thread does not get deranged by guys who cannot stand that a positive project is started about a tool they do not want to explore themselves. That kind of navel gazing protectionism has no place on this forum.

In fact, it's been done before but with Japanese natural stones. I'm very thankful for JimR and this site for being open to such productive and relaxed conversation. I would personally encourage discussion about barber hones, novaculites, Shaptons, Naniwas, Thuringians, or whatever. We can sometimes make mistakes by taking ourselves (and our opinions) too seriously. I'm glad that the people on this forum can take a step back and laugh. I've met some amazing researchers, and the very best of them were humble in this regard.

[sub]Now, where's that darn "Thanks!" button...[/sub]

 

[Paul]

Having a website about the natural whetstone with a heritage of a couple of centuries doesn't mean it is being hyped.

Of course it doesn't. I'm merely asking that we recognize how some might think that.

In fact, those who tried to read my first and second post in this thread should understand how alert the associates of this website are for hyperbole and the spreading of unconfirmed information as "fact". It is not because the owner and a couple lieutenants of one forum stand at the sideline shouting "hyperbole!!", because that's a strategy their particular agenda dictates, that there is any real basis for these allegations. People sometimes make a lot of smoke, in the hope to spread the idea of a fire.
The same can be said for the so-called "drama". It is not our fault that the same people couldn't accept the recently published BBW-study for what it is, and again made allegations about hype and caused some drama in the margin. And it is even less the fault of the rocks themselves. Which brings me to the properties of the Belgian whetstones.

Drama = an episode that is turbulent or highly emotional. I think that fits in perfectly to describe a lot of the posts on both sides of this issue.

Of course I think they are better than everything else I have tried. I also think that Highland Park 18y is the best single malt whisky I've ever tasted. But does that mean I am going to chime in threads that enthusiastically deal with other hones or whiskys, to point out that they are drinking the wrong one, or to stress the fact that I have honed 1000's of razors and feel there is a "better" solution than the one discussed?

I actually have never once in all my time reading your posts seen where you said coticules were "better". I've seen you say that you preferred them, you have an affinity for them, etc., but at the end of the day, I remember you saying you felt in a blind shave test we all likely wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference and it all boiled down to personal preference.

I offer my apology for misrepresenting your take on this.

I consider it a disgrace for Coticules to dwell into this kind of human intolerance for what other people prefer to drink or the tools they love to use. Coticules are perfectly capable to speak for themselves. They've been around for centuries and survived without hyperbole and sleazy forums politics. Their brilliance is to be discovered for those who care to find out. I love it when a newly arrived member discovers some of the aspects that continues to make my heart beat faster about these rocks. New member's enthusiasm is where we -I speak on behalf of all associates - find the energy to continue with Coticule.be. But I feel that enthusiasm cannot and should not be promoted by a pedantic sort of praise. It is honest and unbiased information that helps a new guy discover the rewards of a good Coticule edge. And he is fully free to discover that is not for him, should that be the case. I have friends who could't care less for Highland Park 18y. Or for the Coticule they use. As long as it shaves well, right?

Well, you're correct. Coticules have a very rich history, and I agree with your point about how their brilliance awaits those who care to find out... But for those who don't, why bother arguing the point? I don't see it as being worth our time. However, the naysayers nay, the defenders defend, and before you even realize what's happened accusations about motives on both sides of the issue are questioned... and that equates to drama. What really surprised me, my friend, is the fact that I jokingly called the La Petite Blanche strata the "best" (while linking to a lengthy, thoroughly thought out explanation of what I enjoy about it while saying it's all personal and not based on anything tangible), and the response from our friend only dealt with the most tangential aspects of that entry.

I'm not sure what you mean by pedantic praise, but I think I agree with your overall point. I too only care about honest, unbiased information, and at the end of the day, it all boils down to personal preference.

I am not going to prove or disprove what a barber's hone can or cannot do. But whomever wants to explore them, is fully invited to start a dedicated thread in the Razor's Inn. And we will make sure that such a thread does not get deranged by guys who cannot stand that a positive project is started about a tool they do not want to explore themselves. That kind of navel gazing protectionism has no place on this forum.

I don't have any interest in fully exploring the functionality of all the other one stone methods, either. Like you, the modest coticule has won my affection, but I was simply pointing out that the other methods exist. Even though I preferred the BBW edge in OTB, I rarely use it because I enjoy the coticule heritage and process so much. It's just that I support any and all efforts to increase the options for new guys who want to take a minimalistic/skill based approach to their shaving journey irrespective of their source.

Thanks for the kind post, as always.

Best regards,

Paul

 

[tat2Ralfy]

I was actually referring to and agreeing with the op with my best remark, it is jeness's thread after all:

It is not a coincidence that I asked for your favourite layer, and not the best I know that "best" doesn't exist, I was only interested which layers do the members here like the most. I was trying to avoid this kind of discussion, because everyone has his own opinions on it, but I failed

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Paul]

I was actually referring to and agreeing with the op with my best remark, it is jeness's thread after all:

It is not a coincidence that I asked for your favourite layer, and not the best I know that "best" doesn't exist, I was only interested which layers do the members here like the most. I was trying to avoid this kind of discussion, because everyone has his own opinions on it, but I failed

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

You're right. My apologies for not spelling out that it was a joke to begin with. I sincerely thought there was zero chance anyone would take that seriously. This is not my thread, and I shouldn't have been so bold. Please excuse that

 

[tat2Ralfy]

.......I sincerely thought there was zero chance anyone would take that seriously....

I didn't know that anyone had

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Paul]

.......I sincerely thought there was zero chance anyone would take that seriously....

I didn't know that anyone had

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

I took that as being a gentle reprimand, and I assumed it was due to the fact that I said "best" in my response. My only point of posting here was to say "My favorite is La Petite Blanche, and since I recently spent a lot of time discussing this topic and how it has no real basis anything tangible, I'll link to that blog entry".

Again, my apologies, but your response seemed to indicate you took issue with it.

 

[Basil]

I know I'm pretty new to this site but this forum topic has been a great read for many reasons


First it's always great to hear others thoughts and opinions on the coticules we know and love. I myself enjoy using lpb only because it's the only one I've ever tried.

That being said if I didn't have a coti I would for sure bought a bbw after the study was done because it was a cheap alternative to an expensive set up. It sickens me to read threads on other sites where narrow minded people don't pay any attention to something that is a great finding. It just goes to show how stubborn some people are even when it comes to saving hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

Also I agree with the fact that other forums out there promote the buy all you can for as much as yoh can approach to shaving.
I recenly posted a topic in both websites and simply titled it addiction. I simply stated that to me it felt that alot of people were addicted to some sort of shaving high and they couldn't control themselves or be reasonable with their spending.

What puzzled me was all the responses I got. Instead of some people saying your right maybe we should relax with our crazy AD, I go so many negative remarks pretty much saying that I was the crazy one for thinking that.

In the end the other forums can do what they want but I'll admit I come here for the quality of the posts and the fact that you can speak the truth here without any negative repercussions.

 

[Bart]

It is a sad but oh so true observation that Internet fora have a magnetic effect on people who are on a buyer's high. But that does not mean they must be allowed to dictate a doctrine in support of their compulsive buyer's behavior.

Kind regards,
Bart

 

[Guest]

Two things come to mind: You don't teach an old dog new tricks (at least not without applying the proverbial stick liberally), and the NIH principle - if it was Not Invented Here, it cannot be good.

Now, other forums have different focuses. Some excel in their knowledge of DEs, some focus on honing. That is all nice and dandy, as long as the people dominating the discussions keep an open mind. Where things get tricky is when senior (both in terms of age, but also experience and organisational role in a forum) members have a penchant for suppressing dissent. You described the problem well, and it is something that makes the vast majority of shaving forums practically useless. Unless, of course, you succumb to the doctrine du jour. A former Coticule vendorator whose name shall be withheld recently compared Coticules to a box of candies, meaning that they varied wildly and were - in general - far less uniform in their performance than Eschers (of which he apparently owns more than a few). Now, Eschers were tested here (where the concept of vendorator does not exist), and were found to be OK - but not out-of-this-world-good.

So, when doctrine meets sales tactics, things go from tricky to dirty. Add to that other mental problems (like the buying and hoarding compulsive disorders euphemistically described as ADs), and you should be prepared for an interesting social networking experience.

Regards,
Robin

 

[jeness]

This topic shows really good what hype can do:
http://straightrazorplace.com/forums/hones/57181-totally-non-scientific-experiment.html

Out of 8 poeple, 1 could only guess which razor was finished on which stone. Where Jnats and CF-s are so highly regarded stones, and very expensive, some of the "top" "honemeisters" didn't have a clue which edge was which. If those edges are that superior, than you would think that everyone would choose the Jnat edge, or the CF. But surprise, surprise, the people voted almost totally equal. Now what?

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Well the last 3 posts pretty much nailed it for me, I wonder what conclusions one would come to, if they were to live an insular life, completely devoid of outside influence, and shaved and honed away with a myriad of different hones?
I dare say that a favorite would become apparent, and an unbiased very subjective favorite at that.

Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Basil]

Obviously I'm not living without forums but that's pretty much the way it happened for me.


I tried a few razors, found that the le grelots were my favorite shavers and I stuck with them and sold the rest.

When it came time to get hones I tried out a coticule and compared it to edges off of other hones and it was the cotiule that won out for me.

Since then I've stuck to my one stone and one razor(well one brand but 3 grelots as a rotation) and have been looked upon as the odd man out since I don't have a lavish collection.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

Obviously I'm not living without forums but that's pretty much the way it happened for me.


I tried a few razors, found that the le grelots were my favorite shavers and I stuck with them and sold the rest.

When it came time to get hones I tried out a coticule and compared it to edges off of other hones and it was the cotiule that won out for me.

Since then I've stuck to my one stone and one razor(well one brand but 3 grelots as a rotation) and have been looked upon as the odd man out since I don't have a lavish collection.

Now that is very very cool Basil :thumbup:
And a shame that you are considered the odd man out in certain circles, of course that says more about them than it does you IMHO

Best Regards
Ralfson (Dr)

 

[Emmanuel]

Hi Basil .Your choice is absolutely normal. If you like a razor type or a coticule layer is your taste ,and i find nothing strange.
Best regards
Emmanuel