Charnley Forest Anyone?

[BlueDun]

According to my information, all Dovo linen strops come pretreated with Dovo's white linen strop dressing. According to another (less reliable) source, that dressing might be chalk based. But I'm not sure about that, there are other white substances imaginable with a soft buffing action. Titanium oxide comes to mind.

Bart, interesting, where did you get that info.
I actually have one of those dovo. It was my very first practicing strop. The white "linen" side did not look like as if it was treated with anything. However, I did not specifically watch out for that. If it is treated then really, really lightly.
So, well possible that I was wrong with my statement. Even more it would be interesting to have that confirmed. I'll try and ask Dovo or some distributers.

Bur still I suppose you will agree that even untreated strops will darken over time?

Cheers
BlueDun

 

[garyhaywood]

i did'nt realize they were treated untill some one said so i checked the 5 out that had and they had a chalky substance in the weave, other wise i would not of known.

 

[Bart]

But still I suppose you will agree that even untreated strops will darken over time?

I think so. But honesty dictates that I have only sufficient experience to notice blackening with 3 strops: The excellent linen component of the Dovo "Juchten leather" strop. It does blacken, but only after a long time of use. I used that Dovo for the first couple of years. Later I upgraded to the Old Traditional strop and ordered a TM genuine linen of matching size. I used it 3 or 4 months as is. It was probably too short a period to notice any blackening. I was efficient all right, but even after all these months, I still liked my Dovo linen more when I occasionally used it once on a blue moon. I decided to treat the TM linen with Dovo's white strop dressing. That instantly gave that hint of velvetiness that I loved so much when I used the Dovo. I now at ease with the TM linen. We're 6 months later now, and there are definitely some early traces of blackening. It does seem to me that the Dovo white dressing adds some abrasiveness to the fabric. It is not something I notice on the edges of my razors, compared to the untreated linen, but the blackening is there.
The third fabric I have a experience with it some sort of jute. It works well with CrO, can be made serviceable as a "linen" with Dovo white, but does not offer much efficiency in untreated state. I have not used it enough to notice any blackening in untreated state.

That sums all fabric strops I have really used more than a couple of times. One of the most important aspects of a strop (both fabric and leather), is that I have to be able to look forward to using it. A truly nice strop combines favorable tactile qualities with good efficiency. If the Dovo's are hemp, than that's definitely what I prefer. I only ever bought the TM because the length of the Dovo differs so much from the Old Traditional that I had to focus hard not to bump into the hardware of the Dovo. I found that an annoying distraction. On 2 occasions I flipped the edge of a razor right on top of the leather that covers the end of the strop, bending over part of the edge:cry: .

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[chti_lolo]

I was efficient all right, but even after all these months, I still liked my Dovo linen more when I occasionally used it once on a blue moon. I decided to treat the TM linen with Dovo's white strop dressing. That instantly gave that hint of velvetiness that I loved so much when I used the Dovo. I now at ease with the TM linen.

Has that Dovo white paste a light abrasive (or polishing) effect which may improve the stropping? something like (but less abrasive than) the TI white paste?

Laurent

 

[BlueDun]

Well, some say yes and others say no.
I sent an email to Dovo yesterday with that question. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
BlueDun

 

[chti_lolo]

I have seen this on classicshaving http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522944/196078.htm
"White Paste is used as an edge polish on the LINEN STROP ONLY!"

 

[BlueDun]

Jes, I know that. But I understand it this way: IF you use the white paste, then do it so on the linen. But in no product description of the linen strop I could find the information that these strop are already pre-treated.
Anyway, as said I sent a mail to Dovo. Let's hope I'll get an answer soon.

Now, Bart, let's assume it IS pre-treated: Dilucot/Unicot mandate the use of a linen/hemp strop after honing. Untreated that is, as far as I understand. Yet, you state above that you consider the Dovo strop one of your favorites (btw I love it too). But if it was treaded then it would have some abrasive properties and that would certainly diverge from using a non treated strop in terms of edge keenness. In fact, we would be talking about different honing methods!
Can you please shed some light on that?

Cheers
BlueDun

 

[Paul]

Jes, I know that. But I understand it this way: IF you use the white paste, then do it so on the linen. But in no product description of the linen strop I could find the information that these strop are already pre-treated.
Anyway, as said I sent a mail to Dovo. Let's hope I'll get an answer soon.

Now, Bart, let's assume it IS pre-treated: Dilucot/Unicot mandate the use of a linen/hemp strop after honing. Untreated that is, as far as I understand. Yet, you state above that you consider the Dovo strop one of your favorites (btw I love it too). But if it was treaded then it would have some abrasive properties and that would certainly diverge from using a non treated strop in terms of edge keenness. In fact, we would be talking about different honing methods!
Can you please shed some light on that?

Cheers
BlueDun

I do not use a Dovo pretreated strop, and I don't feel that my results suffer at all :sleep:

 

[torbenbp]

http://www.dovorazors.com/Dovo Strop Paste Guide.pdf

Torbs

 

[Bart]

Anyway, as said I sent a mail to Dovo. Let's hope I'll get an answer soon.

Now, Bart, let's assume it IS pre-treated:

Rest assured. Jemico (=Dovo) canvas is pretreated. If you take a close look at one, it is very obvious that the voids in between the fibers are filled with something.

Many modern Linen strops often come from the manufacturer pre-treated with a very fine chalk-based abrasive. These strops are generally quite stiff when new and do not require any break-in though their performance does improve with use. Over time the chalk abrasive may be worn away. It can be replaced with Linen Strop Paste, which is itself chalk-based and usually is either white or gray in color.

I would be surprised if you receive answer from Dovo. I've given up on e-mailing them with questions, because they never get back to me. Maybe you'll have more luck.

Dilucot/Unicot mandate the use of a linen/hemp strop after honing. Untreated that is, as far as I understand. Yet, you state above that you consider the Dovo strop one of your favorites (btw I love it too). But if it was treaded then it would have some abrasive properties and that would certainly diverge from using a non treated strop in terms of edge keenness. In fact, we would be talking about different honing methods!
Can you please shed some light on that?

I always say: use a good linen and leather. I used my TM linen untreated for several months, and had no problems with the edges.
As I see it the Dovo white paste (not to be confused with the TI "pâte rasoir", is more a kind of fabric strop dressing, than an actual sharpening paste like CrO or the Dovo red and black pastes. I probably has a slight buffing action, but clearly not enough to impart any convexity on an edge, as the other stuff mentioned does.
As Paul already testified it is not a conditio sine qua non to use Dovo white paste. I would not call it "different honing methods!".

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[TM280]

To echo Bart, I don't believe the strop dressing has any abrasive effect. To the contrary (and not a scientific supposition), I find that rougher surfaces on fabric (not Kanayama, on the basis of ideas I have posted before) tend to deliver a better edge improvement, of a sort. But it is no fun stropping on rough material and can tax one's stropping technique.

The Dovo strop I have seen does not seem to be of a higher quality hemp. Untreated, I do not think many people would want to use it regularly. The treatment would seem to give it a nice smooth feedback, a type of sensuousness that appeals to us. Thus we use it, thus it has good effect. Rougher fabrics can inhibit proper stropping through unforgiving feedback.

I have experimented with applied chalk, without the waxiness imparted by a regular dressing. I found no reason to continue using it, since it imparted no extra beneficial effect. (Yes, your chalk, my chalk, their chalk... but I would assume that some effect would have registered nonetheless )

On the other hand, there are good reasons to think that waxiness gives an improvement, even though people talk of not wanting to strop on oils or waxes or such (just take a good look at your Kanayama...). Honing technique difference? No, absolutely not. Maximum stropping effectiveness? Very likely...


regards,
Torolf

 

[chti_lolo]

I don't think that Dovo dressing has any real abrasive effect because chalk is not able to cut steel.
But what I think about linen component of a strop is that fibers of the linen should be scaled to the burr patterns left after honing or use of the blade.
Thin fibers can catch very little burrs and either put them in good position (flat against the edge) or remove them if the fiber is solid enough not be cut by the burr. I think that dressing act in the same way for more little burrs, but dry chalk powder don't stick to the fiber so they have to add wax,oil (it's like some "toothpastes" made of dry micronised chalk powder,if we don't add water, they have no effects)...
So if the linen is not fine enough adding a strop dressing can help to smooth the edge by putting the very little burrs into right flat position (or by removing them).


Regards

Laurent

 

[Bart]

Stropping on linen removes all debris of the edge: hardened soap residue, microscopical corrosion, possible micro-fragments of steel that were partially teared off the edge during a previous shave. The fabric is rough enough to remove all those anomalies and embeds them safely in the depths of the fabric, where they can't do any harm (iron oxide, a.k.a. "rust", is harder than steel). For the same reason, it is also recommended to first strop on linen immediately after a honing job. It is a documented fact that during the sharpening process, honing debris deposits(Experiments on Knife Sharpening, prof. John D. Verhoeven, Department of Materials Science and Engineering,
Iowa State University, pages 2 and 3) are formed. These cannot be just wiped off with a paper towel. The formation of these debris deposits is the major reason why we hone with an edge leading stroke. Sharpening with the edge trailing delivers the deposits right where we don't want them, namely: at the very edge itself. A honing stroke with the edge leading prevents this as much as possible, but not entirely. A good linen strop exerts a minor abrasion to reduce this debris without adding much on its own.

I wrote that after 2 years of pondering and extensive reading of online available scientific studies about surface engineering of hardened steel. Most of these articles are in PDF, downloaded to my computer, but if there's interest, I'll try to find the original links and compile a list.

Anyway, it is clear to me that linen stropping serves to remove, or reduce, anomalies at the very edge, that are not part of the the solid steel shape of that very edge. I am talking about minor traces of oxidation (which are hard, but not so tightly bonded to the steel), gunked honing debris, microscopic fragments that are halfway teared off during the shave,... To be efficient the fabric strop needs some kind of soft abrasion. Not so strong that it starts abrading steel, but strong enough to "scrub" off the aforementioned anomalies. It seems that some natural fibers are more efficient in that respect as others. And it also seems that mild abrasive minerals, such as chalk. Chalk has a hardness of 3 on the Mohs scale. Hardened razor steel has a hardness of about 5 Mohs (equals 58 HRC). It is clear that chalk merely has a buffing action on steel, without hardly any abrasion of core material.

Now, let's look at the composition of hemp fibers:

Cellulose (74-75%)
Hemicellulose (18.4-15.4%)
Lignin (3.7%)
Waxs (4.04%)
Ash (0.82%)
Xylans (3.0- 7.0%)
Proteins (0.5 – 1%)
Pectins (4.0 – 8.0%)

Most of you know Cellulose in its purest form as "starch". It has a hardness of 3-4 on the Mohs scale.
Hemicellulose is also called "vegetable ivory". It has a hardness of 2.5 on the Mohs scale.
I don't have hardness data on the others, but I highly doubt there's one that exceeds 4 mohs. Maybe Steve (Woodash) will chime in to shed more light on that.

My conclusion remains, that the fabric strop has it's own place for conditioning the edge of a straight razor, other than the abrasion found on hones and abrasive pastes, and other than the alignment found on the leather strop.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

oh man! I'm interested.

Most of these articles are in PDF, downloaded to my computer, but if there's interest, I'll try to find the original links and compile a list.

I'm pretty sure that most vegetable fibre are composed of cellulose, newspaper included. And it doesn't require a harder substance to act in an abrasive manner on certain things. If that was the case, my saw blades would never go dull.

I know it's been said that strops don't provide any abrasion, but I think the error there is one of scale. I don't think that one could fundamentaly re-work the shape of the blade, at least in one's lifetime, by stropping alone, but on the scale that we need(the sub-micron tip of the bevel), I can't help but think that some aspect of abrasion is occuring. Otherwise, how would one end up convexing a bevel?
The idea of plastic flow is a new one to me, but I also believe that that is coming into play.

I think part of the idea of treating strops is to find an abrasive that is fine enough, and soft enough, that it can take the abrasive effect down below the 30 000 grit size (or whatever). Hence chalk, graphite, and wood ash as a strop treatments. Picture a very soft sub-micron particle of graphite, or chalk. As soft as it is on relation to the steel, I still believe that there is a abrasive effect, albeit very mild compared to CrOx or CeOx, or FeOx. It's the very mildness of it that gives a polishing (abrasive) effect in the realm of plastic flow and sub-micron bevel edges. If it was harder, it would cut a more defined shape, and have a less polishing effect. I think the cellulose in the fibre of the strop material acts in the same way, just slower than a strop treated with chalk or some such.
But I think it all comes back to scale. Go ahead and try to work out that frowninf blade using only your strop. But don't come bitching when your edge is all convexed and your strop is worn through. But, boy, I bet it'll be polished like nothing else

 

[chti_lolo]

To be efficient the fabric strop needs some kind of soft abrasion. Not so strong that it starts abrading steel, but strong enough to "scrub" off the aforementioned anomalies.

what I thought about "chalk" is that it may add some grip to the fibers ( like micro teeth at the surface of the fiber)and favored the onset of catching the debris. Chalk in itself is useless because it is less hard than cellulose. The fibers can ,once they have caught them, also tear away "micro" burrs. But I don't think (remind of old course) that we can repair plastic anomaly (dislocations...) with mechanical treatment. So Dovo treatment is maybe a treatment to improve "artificially" the quality of their hemp as if it were a finer canvas.

This also remind me of my grandfather who worked as a weaver. He had very sharp scissors and alway forbid us to use them to cut paper because it could dull his scissor??? but cutting paper sheet is not the same as stropping on paper!

Regards

Laurent

 

[wdwrx]

These concepts are pretty dificult to convey over the intertubes...
I wonder if the chalk, rather than improving a sub quality medium, doesn't simple add another abrasive function, but on a different level.

It's that same abrasivness that wrecks the edge of scissors that provides the polishing on a strop.

I think that just because something is less hard than another thing doesn't completly eliminate the damage (or polishing or abrasion) done to the harder surface. It's just less damage.
Take for instance, graphite. It's generaly considered a lubricant, and it would seem counter-intuitive to suppose it could act as an abrasive, but again, keeping scale factors in mind, it's chemical structure gives it planes of knobbly surfaces, in a fairly consistent and stable structure, but at a very low Moh's value.(2 maybe?). In my layman's understanding, I think of it this way: For every given quantity of steel removed, a greater amount of abrasive use "used up" in the process. The harder the abrasive, the more it cuts and the less is used up (for lack of a better term) A soft abrasive is used up at a greater rate to achieve the same effect, but acting in a more gentle fashion. I believe that a strop treanment like graphite will act more gently on the edge, and therefore smooth out the steel on a finer scale.
(wow... typing sucks.... take everything I say with a proverbial question mark at the end... every time I set out to learn something new, I'm always humbled by the shear magnitude of my ignorance)

Boy have we ever highjacked Ralpy's thread. Sorry, buddy.

 

[Bart]

Boy have we ever highjacked Ralpy's thread. Sorry, buddy.

That's what we do around here with threads about non-Coticule stones. We bury them in endless pseudo-scientific lingering... :sneaky:


Bart.

 

[chti_lolo]

Boy have we ever highjacked Ralpy's thread.

No, I don't think so.

and any comments or advice would be gratefully received

Maybe instead of chalk, we could have used Charnley Forest powder

 

[wdwrx]

But, boy, is it fun! I love trying to wrap my head around new ideas....:thumbup:

edit: Laurent, don't give me anymore ideas! I'm running out of strops!

though if someone wants to send me some CF powder, I'm sure I could find one to put it on.

 

[Woodash]

I don't have hardness data on the others, but I highly doubt there's one that exceeds 4 mohs. Maybe Steve (Woodash) will chime in to shed more light on that.

Sorry - guess I stepped out for a minute....
Heck - I wouldn't know what the relative hardness of that stuff is. Soft. That's my vote right there: Soft. Boy, you guys can really get down into it, huh?

I like the cloth primarily for displacing water after shaving and cleaning the razor. I also do it before a shave as a habit to remove any possible crud from the surface before going to leather. Beyond that, I don't think about it too much. :O