Different stones= different results.

[wdwrx]

The ongoing saga continues....
OK! I've taken my King cutter back twice now (this morning's test shave with it wasn't very rewarding so I gave up on it and used the one Gary did for me ) to a very, very light slurry and an extendo-cot.
After the first shave i had with it, I became convinced that I'd been a little too heavy handed with the old girl. It was the first time I've ever experienced an un-smooth coti edge. Dull... but never not smooth. During the last couple of iterations, I was trying to dial in the pressure a bit, and extending each dilution from 20 to 30 half strokes, but keeping my pressure as reasonably light as I could. Finished with 100 light and quick laps wth water.
I managed to get some remarkable HHT results. :thumbup: A very nice pop with a medium/fine hair off the hones, and a dead silent HHT5 with the very fine hair Gary sent me. woot!

So now I've got two new things I'm wondering about.....
1/2 stroke vs x-strokes..... previously, I'd not really focused a tremendous amount on 'proper' half strokes, and tended to do more x-strokes, because I felt more comfortable with them and felt I could do them lighter. But, since I've focused my attention on getting my 1/2 strokes down, and seen an immediate improvement, I've since wondered if x-strokes don't lack efficiency due to an increase in slurry dulling over 1/2 strokes. My reasoning is that x-strokes encounter slurry head on to the bevel on every stroke, whereas 1/2 strokes achieve some abrasive action on the draw part of the stroke where slurry isn't contacting the edge. I think that that might lead to an increase in keenness over even double the amount of x-strokes.

The other thing I've been wondering about, and I've (IIRC) asked before, and remember reading others ask, is the importance of speed of stroke, particularily final polish strokes. I'm coming to the conclusion that speed is important. And heres's my convoluted reasoning: Snowboarding. Before you ask WTH?!?!, let me explain. I took up snowboarding about 10 years ago, and the learning curve was really steep and painful. I found that there was nothing worse than going slow and wiping out. As soon as my ass hit the snow, all my momentum was transferred directly through in one painful event. Add a little speed, and I would tend to skip along a bit, bounce, if you will, and bleed my momentum out through a couple or more events. Each event seemed to impart less energy into my poor old body by deflecting it into a slightly different vector, but in decreasingly smaller increments. Picture a stone skipping across a pond:w00t: Now, I realize this may seem a little weird, but wouldn't the same concept apply to steel on stone?

Anywhooo... these are just some of the things i wonder about while I hone....

 

[Gunner777]

I haven't read all the post on this thread but the title caught my eye. When I first started I ran into a natural combo coti at an antique store. I paid a whole ten bucks for it and yes I was a happy camper. After I learned to use it I was amazed at how well it worked.
All that changed when I decided to get a second Coti of a different size. This one wouldn't put a decent edge on any razor no matter what I did. I had become accustomed to the Unicot method by then. After some time and trial and error I finally ended up with three natural combos that worked very well but again not before getting rid of a couple that just didn't fit in well. Now these three are as follows. The first does a good job of setting a bevel or just refining an edge. The second is a bit harder and gets the edge closer to to what I want and would be shaveable after using it but not terribly smooth.The last Coti is harder and is a fine finisher. Without being to long winded I ended up with three that got me from setting a bevel if need be to the final finish before CrOx and stroping. Bottom line all of these wonderful stones are different and I feel you have to try several before you get a combination that suits you. I also know that some are fortunate enough to have a stone that pretty much does it all

 

[Bart]

It's weird. I have literally not encountered a Coticule yet, that would not work with the standards Unicot procedure. There has been Russel's Coticule, that cause some micro-fragmentation at the very edge and therefor was promptly replace by Ardennes, but that on still easily reached a stage were it could pass the HHT after Unicot, and provided an acceptable shave, although not one to the high "Coticule smoothness' standards. There also have been one with inclusions that caused chips in the edge (at which point Ardennes decided not to offer it for sale), but also that one easily passed the HHT.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Paul]

Bart, you have to remember that you are the exception not the rule. Don't you realize that only 2 in 135 coticules are actually fit for razor honing? You have been told this before

 

[Gunner777]

It;s very interesting how much different they can be. I guess a lot of the difference is partly because of pressure and makeup of the stone at different levels of the mines. I sure wish I could talk with someone who really knows they why's of these stones.

 

[tat2Ralfy]

It;s very interesting how much different they can be. I guess a lot of the difference is partly because of pressure and makeup of the stone at different levels of the mines. I sure wish I could talk with someone who really knows they why's of these stones.

You Can, he is 2 posts above yours :thumbup:

Best regards
Ralfson(Dr)

 

[wdwrx]

Gunner, this site is the place to learn all about 'em! The knowledge base here is second to none.

I should point out that my experience regarding different coti's is strictly that of a noob. I just had a little 'break-through" as a result of trying a different stone. I'm dying to get my vintage back now.... I feel like i understand her a bit better now. And maybe treated her a little shabbily.

Cheers,
-Chris

 

[Gunner777]

Ok your right. Well Bart in 2000 words or less enlighten me--LOL! Seriously why do they vary so much--? the short version

 

[Bart]

Ok your right. Well Bart in 2000 words or less enlighten me--LOL! Seriously why do they vary so much--? the short version

Well, I don't find they vary that much. In speed yes. And also in length/width, which obviously has an influence on speed as well - in both directions. But a Unicot will give me results within a pretty narrow range. You could be tempted to think that it demands highly specialized skills, but I would disagree. Every time I have been able to witness someone performing it correctly, his results were as good as mine. Though a lot of guys are set to learn Dilucot, which requires a bit more practice.

If I understand your post about the search for Coticules that work for you, you are always finishing on CrO?
While there's nothing inherently wrong with using pasts, it should not be necessary. If it is, there is something lacking in your procedure or practice with the Coticule. Often guys do to many laps on the "misty slurry" step after taping. Or they forget to use as low pressure as possible for the "taped" steps. Or they tape to early, when the bevel is not fully developed yet. Or they do not strop the freshly honed edge on a linen. Just to name a few common factors that would make the outcome rather unpredictable.

I believe we need better tutorials/videos on this website.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[DJKELLY]

Yeah, you're a real slouch, Bart. Start contributing.

 

[Gunner777]

Bart I do use CrOx more out of an old habit than any need for a particular razors edge. Back years ago before using Coti's I got in the habit of using CrOx as well as diamond paste later. I've since stopped using the diamond paste. Now that you bring it up I need to stop using it unless I check a blade and find a need for it. With a Coti I probably don;t even need to use it.I have some razors to hone so I'll skip that step and see what happens. As far as touch I keep it light since a heavy hand makes it dull rather than having any sharpening effect.I believe it also messes up the bevel.
Videos would be nice and especially helpful for new guys just taking up honing as well as just learning others techniques.

Thanks!

 

[mrmaroon]

Gunner, I used to use that paste when honing my edges, but after doing some Unicots without it I never saw the need again. I am also of the opinion that using a 100-300$ finishing hone and then going to paste is a waste of a good honed edge. I would rather feel the stones abilities then the 10c worth of paste.

Anyhow, if you are going to try dilocot and just can't get it there finish wise try 5 laps on balsa Crox and finish with 25 laps or so on the coti. I did this for a while until I could get good edges from the hone alone.

Also, I went from a vintage coti to another vintage to a les latnueses before I found the one I really liked. Learning dilocot on that latnueses helped me learn to dilocot on my other ones I couldn't do before. I'm sure if I stuck with just one I would have eventually got it though, the latnueses aren't magical! Now ive burned through about 9 different coticules, each is very unique.

Regards,
MrMaroon

 

[Gunner777]

Well I honed a couple last night without using the CrOx and being one to admit when I'm wrong it worked much better skipping the CrOx Ya learn something new everyday:thumbup:

 

[tat2Ralfy]

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[Bart]

Yeah, you're a real slouch, Bart. Start contributing.

But seriously, there's a lot to improve in the tutorials from the Sharpening Academy. Better videos are high on the to-do list.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[RicTic]

Ric, take Gary up on that offer. He put the single most smoothest and sharpest edge I've ever experienced on one of mine. Gary is really, really good at this! and he'd a true Gentleman too!

I took Gary up on his generous offer.
Thanks Chris.

Special thanks to Gary for bringing that Dovo back to life. :thumbup:

Oh and Chris. Where are those beautiful, enthusiastically manic posts of yours gone?
Your early morning honing adventures are sorely missed.

 

[wdwrx]

I took Gary up on his generous offer.
... Special thanks to Gary for bringing that Dovo back to life. :thumbup:

How was it? I ended up with a couple of cut because the one he did for me was much sharper than I'd been getting. It took a bit of adjusting.

Oh and Chris. Where are those beautiful, enthusiastically manic posts of yours gone?
Your early morning honing adventures are sorely missed.

I can hear the groans from here.... "OMG... don't encourage him!"

 

[wdwrx]

.... actually, I think I'm starting to settle in now. Not to say I've got it beat, but, I'm starting to get more consistant results. Without any weirdness like using oil or resorting to synthetics or pastes. Routinly, I find I never get it first time around, but the second time or sometimes third, for sure. well, OK... maybe sometimes a fourth:thumbup:
Problem is... I've been honing a razor or two most days... but I'm really only an every other day shaver. (My technique needs a bit of improvement, I guess.) so I'm relying a lot on HHT results... and often not even shaving with the razor, unless I've got stellar results. Tonight I've had my best results ever. HHT5 Plain and simple.... with the fine hair Gary sent me for testing! I realize that won't mean much to anyone but Gary and I, but I'll tell ya, usually that particular hair sample just laughs at edges. This is a very significant jump in edge keennes for me. Huge! I'm hoping it will live up to it's promises for tomorrow's shave.
The challenge for me now is to apply that to the edges I own with a pronounced smile. I find I have a harder time with those. My pull stroke is fine, but my push stroke is obvioulsy different, and I'm prone to blowing a stroke and having to start all over again. 4 times in a row I blew it with my elskituna... always just at the end of dilutions so I had plenty of time invested at that point.:thumbdown:
The area of greatest finesse, I think, is in the pressure used. Bart helped me tremendously with a proverbial kick-in-the-but about not using enough, but I don't believe it's that simple. I think that there are times when more is more appropriate, but I think the real higher-order keenness comes from the right pressure at the right time. It's not always more, and it's not always the least..... I think. Anyways, that's where I'm at now.... playing with pressure. And dilutions. and slurry thicknes... Holy Crap! I guess I still have no idea what the hell I'm doing.:w00t:

 

[garyhaywood]

the razor you sent me is a great example of typical coticule edge and it shaved realy well, if your practicing regular you will soon get there as i' no you are. The hone you sent me is giving a less hht . the shaves are differant of this vintage , as in very very forgiving as you no. i have rehoned your razor again and its now there i reckon. I just went back and forth from hone to strop , I used the strop to realy improve things. I managed a little pass of the hone with hht and its now much better after stropping. I reckon the edge has hardly any bite and thats why the hht is not as responsive. So yes its all ways good to test with a shave if in dout. the razor as i told you, shaves and its like it could never cut me if i tryed. Even with pressure no problems and atg the razor did not hurt at all . like you said and i agree its like shaving with a butter knife but it shaves, thats all that matters. After 3 passes i aplied alum block and there was not any sting or sensation at all, that i have never experianced. after atg shave i always get some tingle . not of your razor after honing on your vintage.

i'll say one thing criss, this vintage is a nice size cuts just nice leaves a some what crispy but forgiving edge that i have never come across. And for some reason its not, easy hone to get the max out of, i can see why you struggled with this hone.

i think it was ricco that brought the same hone to the coticule pilgramage. I'm sure he said he had been struggling to get any joy from it. I no its the same as yours because of the pink shadows, that are described as looking like a skin condition. I also used his and it felt just like yours in every way. his was vintage hone . you could use your s and finish with the la drassante or the oposite way round and see how it works both hones may help each other in that way. may be one works with water a little better , you will have to try these things out your self.

 

[wdwrx]

Well, I can't wait to try it again. Especially now that I've heard your review of it, Gary.
It's kinda gratifying to also hear that it's a tougher stone. I thought I was losing it. I was beginning to despair of ever getting a good edge from it. The first thing I'm going to do is try it as a finisher after honing a razor well with the La Dressante. (which is working marvelously for me BTW:thumbup: )
Oh, and the razor with my best HHT results: shaved like a dream!:w00t: